Corporate quackery.

[Admin]

Reading Randi's Swift commentary today I saw this entry: http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-04/042806boots.html#i1

Some notable comments from Boots include:

Boots takes pride in offering choice to the consumer, and it would be inappropriate for us to deny consumer access to alternative products and therapies, if this is what they want.

All new products marketed by Boots are reviewed by technical/regulatory experts to ensure legal and ethical compliance.

We make no apology for marketing alternative healthcare products, and we will continue to do so for as long as our customers wish to buy them.

To me, that reads: we will sell anything that we can get away with selling!

Selfridges' use of 'psychic services' smacks of the same attitude. Corporate business has taken the same attitude as the small-time con man: there's a sucker born every minute; if they're prepared to buy it, we'll sell it.

The really sad thing is not so much that once respected companies are prepared to trash their corporate image in persuit of profit, but that there's actually a market out there for this bullshit. The first rule of business: demand creates supply.

[vbloke]

Dr Woo says "If you can't beat them, join them. And then bring them down from within"

Possibly. I'm trying my best :D

[doubting thomas]

I have always had this to say about any sort of medicine,
"If you haven't got a prescription you don't need it."

[Nettles]

(D'you know, I think it might be a lot nicer to discuss Randi's commentaries here where it's a bit friendlier than the JREF forum.)

I don't think I'd have a huge problem if Budgens were selling quack remedies because the demand is there -- as we've observed that's what retailers do.

But Boots is an actual pharmacy with actual pharmacists attracting people who have need of real therapies. They bill the NHS and collect fees on behalf of the NHS. That, it seems to me, gives them a certain responsibility.

I have, by the way, noticed that the quack section of my local Boots has all but disappeared. They put in a vast set of displays in 2001, and over the past five years it has shrunk to a "vitamins and supplements" section. I expect this is because we have a GNC, a Holland & Barrett and an independent "health" food shop in town and Boots just couldn't compete successfully.

[Aardvark]

I have always had this to say about any sort of medicine,
"If you haven't got a prescription you don't need it."


Once upon a time this may have been true.

However, these days you can buy OTC remedies from a Pharmacy that 10 years ago would olny have been available on prescription.

There are many very well tried OTC medicines that will help with both short term self limiting illnesses and evn some chronic recurring illnesses. Mots pack inserts tell you to consult a physician after a set time period if symptoms remain.

Examples of good OTC buys

Analagesics simple
Analgesics, compound
NSAIDs
Antihistamines
H2 receptor antagonists
Topical Steroids
Nasal Steroids

[doubting thomas]

Once upon a time this may have been true.

However, these days you can buy OTC remedies from a Pharmacy that 10 years ago would olny have been available on prescription.

There are many very well tried OTC medicines that will help with both short term self limiting illnesses and evn some chronic recurring illnesses. Mots pack inserts tell you to consult a physician after a set time period if symptoms remain.

Examples of good OTC buys

Analagesics simple
Analgesics, compound
NSAIDs
Antihistamines
H2 receptor antagonists
Topical Steroids
Nasal Steroids


The strength of these medicines is much reduced for most of the OTC varieties.
A doctor can sometimes save you money by prescribing an OTC medicine if it is expensive.




edit: fix quotes

[Aardvark]

Once upon a time this may have been true.

However, these days you can buy OTC remedies from a Pharmacy that 10 years ago would olny have been available on prescription.

There are many very well tried OTC medicines that will help with both short term self limiting illnesses and evn some chronic recurring illnesses. Mots pack inserts tell you to consult a physician after a set time period if symptoms remain.

Examples of good OTC buys

Analagesics simple
Analgesics, compound
NSAIDs
Antihistamines
H2 receptor antagonists
Topical Steroids
Nasal Steroids


The strength of these medicines is much reduced for most of the OTC varieties.
A doctor can sometimes save you money by prescribing an OTC medicine if it is expensive.


Yes I agree he/she can and will also be aware of what is cheaper to buy than to pay a prescripition charge for.

You also have to add in the time factor to see that GP where you could already be self medicating from a Pharmacy

If the doses are reduced in OTC remedies and you have access to the ABPI data sheet compendium, Mims magazine or a BNF, you would be in a position to take more tablets in order to match the prescription dose. I used to do this regulary with Ibuprofen.

The nasal steroids and antihistamines that I mentioned are at the same dose as they were on prescription.

As far as H2 recpetors are concerned the OTC dose is the same as for the licenced dose for dyspepsia, but far less than for ulcer disease, but this is logical as for this condition you should seek medical advice first. There is a small but finite risk of gastric carcinoma as well as more complicated ulcerative conditions



edit: fix quotes

[Mongrel]

Not forgetting of course that the Government are pushing for Pharmacies to be the first line in patient health. Scotland already has a form of this in MAS (http://www.show.scot.nhs.uk/sehd/mels/HDL2005_48.pdf)(Minor Ailment Service) and Englands version is coming soon with MuR (http://www.psnc.org.uk/uploaded_txt/Service%20Spec%20AS1%20-%20Medicines%20Use%20Review-Prescription%20Inter..pdf)(Medicine Use Review), both of these are being are only starting points the services are going to grow. Most Pharmacies now have a consultion area and soon they'll be able to dispense some POM medicines, at the moment all they can do is advise OTC, P drugs or a trip to the Doctor.

[Mojo]

Not forgetting of course that the Government are pushing for Pharmacies to be the first line in patient health. Scotland already has a form of this in MAS (http://www.show.scot.nhs.uk/sehd/mels/HDL2005_48.pdf)MAS?? ??? :o :eek:

[Admin]

;D ;D ;D

This is from the MUR:

Aims of Service

To improve patient knowledge, concordance and use of medicines by:

• establishing the patient’s actual use, understanding and experience of
taking their medicines;
• identifying, discussing and resolving poor or ineffective use of their
medicines;

How are they going to implement those aims whilst selling homeopathy at the same time? ???

[Mongrel]

How are they going to implement those aims whilst selling homeopathy at the same time? ???


Well most of the Pharmacists I know regard homeopathy as just sugar pills for the worried well, don't forget Boots isn't run by Pharmacists (http://www.boots-plc.com/main.asp?pid=900) anymore, at best it's a "not going to hurt them and stops them wasting a Doctors time" attitude.
The good thing is since the MUR is now part of the Pharmacy contract that comes from the Government through the Royal Society (http://www.rpsgb.org.uk/) that, in theory, should take precedence over how many sCAM produts head office want them to push.

(Oh yeah - nice one Mojo O0)

[Jocky]

The trouble is that Joe Public associates big names with The Truth. "If Boots stock it, then it must be good" is the way people think.

Who are these "technical/regulatory experts" which Boots claims to use, then?


[Mojo, come back, it's not that MAS, honest, it's just ... oh, too late, he's gone ;D]

[Admin]

I think that companies, as well as healthcare professionals, are well aware that homeopathy doesn't work but many are prepared to use it and sell it under the premise that it's a "benign deception".

If people think it works, and it keeps them happy then no harm done.

Of course, if they're using it in place of seeking proper medical care then any placebo effects they get from using homeopathy could suppress symptoms long enough to delay the seeking of proper care to the point where it's too late.

[Mongrel]

I think that companies, as well as healthcare professionals, are well aware that homeopathy doesn't work but many are prepared to use it and sell it under the premise that it's a "benign deception".

If people think it works, and it keeps them happy then no harm done.

Of course, if they're using it in place of seeking proper medical care then any placebo effects they get from using homeopathy could suppress symptoms long enough to delay the seeking of proper care to the point where it's too late.


If people are asking the Pharmacist about illness then they will get good advice regarding medicines or when to see the Doctor, if they specifically ask about homeopathic remedies (for things like colds and other self limiting ailments) then, depending on the Pharmacist, they'll get a variety of advice. Some will deny any usefullness whatsoever, very few will believe it works. Most however fall into the Benign deception - It doesn't do any harm (one of the primary rules for a Pharmacist), won't interfere with other medication and makes the patient feel better.

Unfortunately Pharmacies are still a business, they're goal is to make money, they make money by selling stuff their customers want. If they don't the customers go to another shop. Since a lot of the core business is goodwill\regulars if something causes them to shop elsewhere it's quite likely that they'll stay shopping there and take their prescriptions with them. All the Pharmacists that I know decry the validity of homeopathic remedies, if asked directly, but for the sake of happy customers and money in the tills are happy with "Meh - It's not going to hurt you and we can't sell placebo directly" if a customer picks a bottle up and waves it at them.

[Blue Bubble]

Boots have started an advertising campaign on TV for their web-service "Check it Out" here: boots.com/checkitout (http://boots.com/checkitout)

They don't seem to mention any sCAM stuff there (as far as I've checked).

Still checking ...

[huw-l]

Boots have started an advertising campaign on TV for their web-service "Check it Out" here: boots.com/checkitout (http://boots.com/checkitout)

They don't seem to mention any sCAM stuff there (as far as I've checked).

Still checking ...


I followed a link from the very practical advice on hayfever (being a hayfeve sufferer with pollen season just getting ito its stride) to a selection of hayfever medicine at the on-line shop including this : http://www.boots.com/shop/product_details.jsp?productid=1031329

This is on the same page as first and second generation antihistimines and decongestant nasal sprays. Isn't this fraud?
http://www.boots.com/guidedsearch/newsearch.jsp?searchArea=1&searchTerm=hayfever&uri=%2Fguidedsearch%2Fnewsearch.jsp&classificationId=&contentId=&articleId=&N=0&Ntk=all&Nty=1&Go.x=13&Go.y=8

[tkingdoll]

Boots Alternatives?

So they're not just selling this crap, they're making it?

Well, it's all over. Goodnight folks :(

[Nettles]

My local Boots has big window displays telling people to sign up for their new health care advice service. Now there's an opportunity to sell an alternative hay fever remedy!

[huw-l]

So what's the next step do you think? A letter to Boots Corporate HQ?

[vbloke]

A publicity stunt.

Get hold of as much of their homeopathic stuff as possible and I, in my new found role as the resident homeopath can describe to passers-by why it doesn't work.

Either that, or we do a repeat of the "mass-suicide" thing they did in Belgium a few years ago and invite the news along.

[vbloke]

Boots takes pride in offering choice to the consumer, and it would be inappropriate for us to deny consumer access to alternative products and therapies, if this is what they want.

All new products marketed by Boots are reviewed by technical/regulatory experts to ensure legal and ethical compliance.

We make no apology for marketing alternative healthcare products, and we will continue to do so for as long as our customers wish to buy them.

Perhaps attacking this directly might also help - by pointing out to them their potential liability if someone goes down this path instead of following proper medical treatment - they could be opening themselves up for a multi-million pound lawsuit if someone dies as a result.

[Blue Wode]

Interesting blog post from Majikthyse who has just taken Boots to task over its ‘Corporate Social Responsibility’ policy (primarily regarding its sale of homeopathic products):

I am not surprised when a company is venal, self-serving and unscrupulous; that’s disappointing but not unexpected. What is very much worse is when a company publishes high-sounding words as a pretence that it has a conscience, and refuses to engage in any kind of dialogue when asked what it means by that.

Read on….
http://majikthyse.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/these-boots-were-made-for-walking/ (http://majikthyse.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/these-boots-were-made-for-walking/)