Tunbridge Wells homeopathic hospital to close.

[Admin]

http://dcscience.net/?p=167

It's rather pleasing to see rationality winning out over pseudoscience for a change.

Homeopathy is a completely untenable system of healthcare from a scientific point of view: what is homeopathy? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php)

As with all irrational beliefs it can be argued that people gain from it (placebo effects etc.) which is fair enough but to do so on the NHS, at taxpayers' expense, using money that could be spent on things that are proven to work, is an indulgence and a waste.

This is not a question of whether homeopathy works (it doesn't even though many believe in it) but a question of whether the small placebo benefits people gain are worth the cost.

I certainly have never thought so; especially when one considers the alternative treatments the money could be spent on.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for these anachronistic 'homeopathic hospitals' and a sign that we're at last leaving this 19th century psedoscience behind us.

[bindeweede]

http://dcscience.net/?p=167

It's rather pleasing to see rationality winning out over pseudoscience for a change.

Homeopathy is a completely untenable system of healthcare from a scientific point of view: what is homeopathy? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php)

As with all irrational beliefs it can be argued that people gain from it (placebo effects etc.) which is fair enough but to do so on the NHS, at taxpayers' expense, using money that could be spent on things that are proven to work, is an indulgence and a waste.

This is not a question of whether homeopathy works (it doesn't even though many believe in it) but a question of whether the small placebo benefits people gain are worth the cost.

I certainly have never thought so; especially when one considers the alternative treatments the money could be spent on.

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for these anachronistic 'homeopathic hospitals' and a sign that we're at last leaving this 19th century psedoscience behind us.

John,

Shortly after I joined this forum, I printed off your analysis of homeopathy, read and absorbed it. I'm sure you will tell if I'm wrong, but if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

[Mojo]

So closing the hospital will make it more effective?

[Lord Muck oGentry]

So closing the hospital will make it more effective?


Good one!

[bindeweede]

Good one!

I am SSSSOOOO slow, but I get there in the end.:smiley:

[wooo_oops]

John,

Shortly after I joined this forum, I printed off your analysis of homeopathy, read and absorbed it. I'm sure you will tell if I'm wrong, but if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

I'm not going to answer for John, but I did hear that Rajan Sankaran (http://uk.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=Rajan+Sankaran&kgs=1&kls=0[/URL) proposed that only the idea of taking a remedy would suffice.

I heard that from my partner, who studied homeopathy years ago.O0

[Lord Muck oGentry]

I am SSSSOOOO slow, but I get there in the end.:smiley:

Well, that'll larn me. :-)

[bindeweede]

Well, that'll larn me. :-)
Sorry. I do not understand.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Sorry. I do not understand.

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.

[bindeweede]

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.
Hey, am I bovvered? Do I look.....? What's it all about?
Dunno.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

[bindeweede]

It's for me to apologize, not you. I thought you were being ironical rather than lighthearted. Sorry.

Look, you are so brainy, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. This place intimidates me - so many brainy folks. I am simply so pleased that people like Cuddles and Araneus, and others, too many to mention, have not destroyed me. I just feel I have been tolerated, nothing more.

[bindeweede]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

www.avatrsdb.com (http://www.avatrsdb.com)

[bindeweede]

www.avatrsdb.com (http://www.avatrsdb.com)

What's the point of a link that doesn't work>:-)

www.avatarsdb.com (http://www.avatarsdb.com)

Sorry about that.

[Mojo]

OK. Now, where did you get the avatar from?

Strangely enough, I've seen it on a thread about homoeopathy before: it used to appear here (http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathyforums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2557&PN=1), but the person who started it has since changed her avatar.

[Muttley]

....if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

Or taking it to its (il)logical conclusion, everybody who hasn't taken the remedy should be suffering massive overdose symptoms.:cheesy:

M.

[mahakala]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

[Admin]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

Do you have any links or further information?


To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

No it isn't because homeopathy is a placebo treatment. To believe that it's anything different is plain dumb.

See: Homeopathy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=homeopathy.php). 'Remedies' that don't have any ingredients cannot possibly work.

[bobdezon]

Psssssst....John.....theres a clue in the name......... :nurse:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakala

[Admin]

Thanks Bob.

That read is almost as mad as the theory of homeopathy. ;D

[mahakala]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

Good luck with that.

[Admin]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

Have you heard of the Avogadro limit to dilution (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67)? ;)

If homeopaths could tell the difference between a plain sugar pill and a homeopathic sugar pill they would be able to claim James Randi's $1,000,000 prize (http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=31).


But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

No it isn't. It's how stupid mystical and magical thinking wrongly states that reality works.

Reality is that which remains when you stop believing it.

[bobdezon]

It should be noted that spectometry or electron microscopes cannot detect even a single molecule of the original substance in any homeopathic solution (once past a certain dilution ofcourse) This is a mathmatical fact. It has been theorised that to find a single molecule of the original solution in the substance would require a globe of water as large as our solar system. Incase you cannot do the math, there simply is not that volume of water available. Subsequently it is a myth that homeopathy has any other effect than a placebo one.

you are always welcome to accept this information or completely ignore it. You are even welcome to try and commit suicide by ingesting dangerous amounts of any homeopathic remedy if you so choose. ;)

[Mojo]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.


They have? Can you provide citations to where the results have been published?

And how do you square that with this recent statement made by Kate Chatfield of the Research Ethics Committee of the Society of Homeopaths in evidence (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/lduncorr/s&ti210207.pdf) given to the House of Lords select committee on science and technology:
Q538 Lord Broers: I have a simple, technical question about homeopathy and drugs. Is it possible to distinguish between homeopathic drugs after they have been diluted? Is there any means of distinguishing one from the other?

Ms Chatfield: Only by the label.

[Muttley]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.


Well, the BBC "Horizon" programme took the James Randi $1M challenge with a controlled, randomised double-blind trial of a homeopathic preparation of histamine tested against plain water, with the detection system consisting of mammalian tissue culture cells. Cytotoxic effect was measured using flow cytometry - a laser-based technique where results are assessed by a computer system rather than any kind of subjective human analysis.

Within statistical limits of experimental error, the homeopathic preparation and the plain water gave exactly the same results, just as any rational person would expect them to.

Do you have any irrefutable, scientifically-valid evidence that homeopathic preparations have any measurable effect over that of the solvent system in which they are prepared? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

M.