Chiro issuing lethal advice

[filippo lippi]

Went round to the folks on Saturday and my mum's cousin was there and we got round to flu jabs. My dad has one, I get offered one because of asthma, but never take it up as I think it's a waste of resources. The mum's cousin doesn't have one because her chiropractor told her that the flu jab can cause senility!

When she said this, the glw squeezed my leg as a "don't start an argument" signal to me, but I really regret not saying anything.
:-[

[bobdezon]

I see, perhaps you should visit this chiropractor and ask him about a flu jab, if he repeats it and you record that then you can forward that to the relevant authority. You may infact even save a life because of your actions.

[Admin]

This is an example of how quacks can cause indirect harm to people.

Flu is a known killer, which is why the vaccinations are given, and quacks like chiropractors with their dangerous anti-vaccine stance could actually contribute to people's premature death by advising them against vaccination.

That's how dangerous these people really are. >:-)

[vbloke]

If the vaccination (which is just a dead, altered or protein version of the virus) causes senility, then the actual virus must cause it too, thus getting flu must be worse for causing senility than the vaccine, as it is "live" and causes more harm.

[Tuition]

If the vaccination (which is just a dead, altered or protein version of the virus) causes senility, then the actual virus must cause it too, thus getting flu must be worse for causing senility than the vaccine, as it is "live" and causes more harm.

I have to kind of agree with this. In most cases (including the flue), viral defences are just empty capsids, building up the immune defence. - However, there will still be a difference in the way the capasid is delivered, making this argument not 100% full proof.

One possible scenario, is that it is the way in which his drug is administered, causes the senility

[Mongrel]

One possible scenario, is that it is the way in which his drug is administered, causes the senility

Most of the Anti-vaxxers attribute the bad things to the excipients (filler) in the jab. You can check what's in the current crop here (http://emc.medicines.org.uk/), just click on the SPC lines and check section 6.1 :smiley:

[Blue Wode]

I see, perhaps you should visit this chiropractor and ask him about a flu jab, if he repeats it and you record that then you can forward that to the relevant authority. You may infact even save a life because of your actions.


But would such a concern be taken seriously by the relevant authority?

This is the highly dubious ‘vaccination’ website http://www.vaccination.co.uk/ (http://www.vaccination.co.uk/) of a UK chiropractor who, in May of this year, was elected to serve on the committees of the General Chiropractic Council (GCC) – the UK chiropractic regulatory body which supposedly ensures that chiropractic standards are upheld in order to protect patients and the public.

The chiropractor in question currently serves on the GCC’s Health Committee which considers complaints against chiropractors relating to their mental or physical health. See here:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/page.cfm?page_id=9#3 (http://www.gcc-uk.org/page.cfm?page_id=9#3)

As a serving member of the GCC, under ‘non-pecuniary interests declared’ he has put “campaign of awareness of adverse events from vaccinations”, and under ‘direct pecuniary interests declared’ he has put “European distributor for Koren publication patient education materials”. A link to this information could previously be found here
http://test.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/Direct%20Indirect%20and%20non%20pecuniary%20intere sts%20July%2007.pdf (http://test.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/Direct%20Indirect%20and%20non%20pecuniary%20intere sts%20July%2007.pdf)
but it now appears to have been removed. Fortunately I have it on hard copy.

For those not familiar with Tedd Koren, DC, he is a notorious anti-vaccination chiropractic lecturer, researcher and publisher who lives in Pennsylvania, USA. Here is a sample of his website material:
http://www.korenpublications.com/kp/category/vaccine-information (http://www.korenpublications.com/kp/category/vaccine-information)


In view of the GCC's apparent willingness to turn a blind eye to having such a blatant anti-vaxer serve on its committees, all I can say is good luck with any complaint that might be lodged concerning ‘flu vaccinations.

[mahakala]

I see, perhaps you should visit this chiropractor and ask him about a flu jab, if he repeats it and you record that then you can forward that to the relevant authority. You may infact even save a life because of your actions.

And where were you pot noodle when pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies. One stupid comment from a chiropractor is worse in your books apparently. Might even save a life, what absolute bullocks, as if you even care.

[bindeweede]

pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies.

Well, this is totally horrendous, absolutely vile and atrocious. Do, please provide us with the links to these diabolical experiments.

[bindeweede]

what absolute bullocks, as if you even care.
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/report.php?p=22507)


Well......

Sorry, I have no idea where those little thingies came from.

[fruitfly]

pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies.

Well, this is totally horrendous, absolutely vile and atrocious. Do, please provide us with the links to these diabolical experiments.

http://www.mmrfacts.com/article.php?id=420

Google "mercury and vaccines" and you will find plenty of links.

[mahakala]

pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies.

Well, this is totally horrendous, absolutely vile and atrocious. Do, please provide us with the links to these diabolical experiments.

A study conducted by Dr. Geier, which was published in the peer-reviewed Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, concludes that there has been a documented increase in neurodevelopmental disorders following the use of vaccines containing thimerosal. According to Dr. Geier, "The amount of mercury in thimerosal in childhood vaccines far exceeds federal safety guidelines.” Continued Dr. Geier, "A causal relationship between childhood vaccines containing thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders and heart disease appears to be confirmed."

Some may say that the amount of mercury in flu vaccines is safe. Each flu vaccine contains 25 micrograms of mercury. The FDA and the EPA say the "safe" level of mercury is only 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. Since each kilogram is equal to 2.2046 pounds, a person would have to weigh 555.15 pounds in order for the amount of mercury in the vaccine to be at a "safe" level according to EPA/ FDA guidelines.

[vbloke]

A study conducted by Dr. Geier, which was published in the peer-reviewed Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, concludes that there has been a documented increase in neurodevelopmental disorders following the use of vaccines containing thimerosal. According to Dr. Geier, "The amount of mercury in thimerosal in childhood vaccines far exceeds federal safety guidelines.” Continued Dr. Geier, "A causal relationship between childhood vaccines containing thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders and heart disease appears to be confirmed."

Some may say that the amount of mercury in flu vaccines is safe. Each flu vaccine contains 25 micrograms of mercury. The FDA and the EPA say the "safe" level of mercury is only 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. Since each kilogram is equal to 2.2046 pounds, a person would have to weigh 555.15 pounds in order for the amount of mercury in the vaccine to be at a "safe" level according to EPA/ FDA guidelines.Thiomersal has been used in multi-dose vaccines since 1931. It was removed from vaccines in the US in 1999, since when, autism rates have remained constant.

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=236

[fruitfly]

The Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) has examined the link between thiomersal and neurotoxicity. The CSM advised that there is no evidence of harm caused by doses of thiomersal in vaccines, except for hypersensitivity reactions (such as allergic skin reactions). There is no evidence of a link between hypersensitivity reactions and the development of autism.
Two new studies have been completed (one funded by DoH, and the other by WHO) in the UK. They looked at a possible link between mercury in vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders in children. Neither of the studies, involving over a hundred thousand children, finds a link between thiomersal exposure and neurodevelopment disorders, including autism.
A further study, published recently in the medical journal 'The Lancet', found that ethylmercury is very rapidly eliminated from babies' bodies and did not accumulate. The paper found that the level of mercury in blood was no higher in children after vaccination than at birth. Claims of neurological damage have been based on toxicity from methyl mercury, not present in thiomersal.



From http://www.mmrfacts.com/article.php?id=420

[Matt]

And where were you pot noodle when pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies. One stupid comment from a chiropractor is worse in your books apparently. Might even save a life, what absolute bullocks, as if you even care.

You actually believe that? Carefull next time you eat tuna then. A can of tuna contains more mercury than the thimerosal that used to be used as a preservative in some vacines. The low mercury levels were cleared as safe. After it was hypothesised that the mercury was linked with a jump in autism the mercury was removed. Autism levels remained the same. The jump in autism has been atributed instead to a widening of the diagnostic criteria. Just as if influenza levels would jump if every cold, sore throat or runny nose were called flu. By studying autism it appears that the condition is genetic rather then being caused by neurological damage either by mercury or any other agent.

However there are anti vaxers and vested interests profitting from them who persist in believing otherwise. Perhaps the idea of mandatory vacinations scares them, they don't like being told what to do. Perhaps the pharmaceutical companies represent multinational capitalism. However not for the reasons that vacinnes actually do any harm, that's only a pretense. Otherwise the evidence would convince them otherwise.

In the UK thimerosal was never used and yet anti vaxers paid a researcher, Dr Andrew Wakefield to produce controversial findings linking the MMR vaxine with autism. Whilst the evidence in his paper was weak being a study of only 12 children, it merited investigation. However the findings were and rapidly drowned out by more reliable studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15022645
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15022648
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15022649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15022650
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15022651
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15016482
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15016483

It's unfortunate that such retractions don't make the newspapers. Neither does the GMC inquriy into Dr Andrew Wakefileds ethical abuses. To the majority of people in the country the last thing they read in the news about MMR was that it had been called into question. Cionsequently uptake of the vaccine has dipped to worrying levels. Levels low enought to allow small scale epidemics resulting in cases of dangerous childhood diseases including at least one death.

By promoting such leathal and unsubstantiated advice you risk being partially responsible for the next outbreak of suffering, brain damage and death.

Check the facts.

[Matt]

Some may say that the amount of mercury in flu vaccines is safe. Each flu vaccine contains 25 micrograms of mercury. The FDA and the EPA say the "safe" level of mercury is only 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day. Since each kilogram is equal to 2.2046 pounds, a person would have to weigh 555.15 pounds in order for the amount of mercury in the vaccine to be at a "safe" level according to EPA/ FDA guidelines.

That's the amount it's safe to be exposed to every single day. Nobody has a vaccination every single day.

[Matt]

A study conducted by Dr. Geier, which was published in the peer-reviewed Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, concludes that there has been a documented increase in neurodevelopmental disorders following the use of vaccines containing thimerosal. According to Dr. Geier, "The amount of mercury in thimerosal in childhood vaccines far exceeds federal safety guidelines.” Continued Dr. Geier, "A causal relationship between childhood vaccines containing thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders and heart disease appears to be confirmed."

Please note that neither Dr Geier is qualified to make such a statement.

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/mark-geier-untrustworthy-autism.html

Here (http://www.jpands.org/vol8no1/geier.pdf) is the Drs Geier's original article and here (http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-may03.htm) is one of many responses.

[bobdezon]

And where were you pot noodle when pharmaceutical companies were filling their vaccines with mercury and poisoning babies. One stupid comment from a chiropractor is worse in your books apparently. Might even save a life, what absolute bullocks, as if you even care.


I didnt reply to you simply because you are an idiot, I could take the time to educate you as Matt did, but you wont accept any information unless you already believe to be true anyway. Seriously stop stalking me, or Ill have to get john to issue a restraining order ;)

Ps I hear the "middle ages" are nice this time of year O0

[Julia]

I didnt reply to you simply because you are an idiot, I could take the time to educate you as Matt did, but you wont accept any information unless you already believe to be true anyway. Seriously stop stalking me, or Ill have to get john to issue a restraining order ;)

Ps I hear the "middle ages" are nice this time of year O0

Yes, I'd recommend the Middle Ages to anyone who finds the Age of Enlightenment a bit too bracing for comfort.

[mahakala]

By promoting such leathal and unsubstantiated advice you risk being partially responsible for the next outbreak of suffering, brain damage and death.

Firstly, would you like to tape record that allegation, that my advice might be responsible for someones death?

Scratch that, you are obviously a fanatic whos research is reactionary and one dimensional.

Second of all, I don't know about the UK experience, only the American one.

The real story, is in children who are already at risk and children who have a sensitivity to mercury. Believe it or not there is a population with a high degree of sensitivity to mercury - the same people who had health problems from amalgam fillings, which are generally not used at all in this country anymore because of that.

[Admin]

By promoting such leathal and unsubstantiated advice you risk being partially responsible for the next outbreak of suffering, brain damage and death.

No, it's people like you who do that.

It's when vaccination levels in a population go down too far that things like polio can get a grip again. Weren't there deaths amongst the Amish community from polio in the USA recently? Yes they are anti-vax but were previously protected by the herd immunity of others. Once the herd immunity reduces due to idiotic propaganda from anti-vax nutters like you then people die from diseases that there's absolutely no need to die from these days.

We even had a death in the UK of a child - from measles.

So your statement is completely 100% the wrong way around.


The real story, is in children who are already at risk and children who have a sensitivity to mercury. Believe it or not there is a population with a high degree of sensitivity to mercury

Thiomersal has been used for generations without any problem. I believe its use has been depracted now as cheaper alternatives are available, but there never were studies which showed that Thiomersal was dangerous at all.

Just for your info: Thiomersal (the Mercury containing compound) was never used in the MMR vaccine (!)

So all this rubbish about Mercury causing Autism cannot be true for MMR - surprising how many ill-informed anti-vax propagandists keep restating the myth however.


the same people who had health problems from amalgam fillings, which are generally not used at all in this country anymore because of that.

Those people are known as: hypochondriacs. ;)

Have a read of this: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html


Things like Mercury in fillings/vaccines, Aspartame, Sucralose, Fluoride in water, blah, blah, really are issues that hypochondriacs latch onto; usually with evangelical fervour.

Have a read of this: The Art of Scaremongering (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_art_of_scaremongering.php)

and look at how this sort of thing works.

[Admin]

There's a lot of good information on MMR/Autism on Bandolier:

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band84/MMR.html

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band86/b86-4.html

There's more too if you search.

The overwhelming conclusion is that there's no link between MMR and Autism.

[bobdezon]

By promoting such leathal and unsubstantiated advice you risk being partially responsible for the next outbreak of suffering, brain damage and death.

Firstly, would you like to tape record that allegation, that my advice might be responsible for someones death?

Scratch that, you are obviously a fanatic whos research is reactionary and one dimensional.

Second of all, I don't know about the UK experience, only the American one.

The real story, is in children who are already at risk and children who have a sensitivity to mercury. Believe it or not there is a population with a high degree of sensitivity to mercury - the same people who had health problems from amalgam fillings, which are generally not used at all in this country anymore because of that.


I believe it is your posts that are causing brain damage and suffering.

Here are some links which refure your claims quite nicely, read and enjoy, then completely dismiss because you are not willing to accept any information which does not conform to what you already believe.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4055

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4036

[Matt]

By promoting such leathal and unsubstantiated advice you risk being partially responsible for the next outbreak of suffering, brain damage and death.


Firstly, would you like to tape record that allegation, that my advice might be responsible for someones death?

Mahakala, you might want to learn to use the quote feature on this board to save confusion. At the very least use quotation marks.

I don't have a tape recorder but I can provide you with an mp3 of me saying it if there's any purpose in my doing so. Were I lying the publication in this forum is enough grounds for libel or defamation proceedings. However telling the truth, as I have done, is adequte defence against such charges. Your anti vax rhetoric is dangerous. Potentially fatal. There I've said it again.


Scratch that, you are obviously a fanatic whos research is reactionary and one dimensional.

Even if I were that doesn't make me wrong. Why not attack the argument rather than the person.


Second of all, I don't know about the UK experience, or the American one.

Fixed it for you :cheesy:

Anyway silliness aside now you know from the UK story how far anti vaxers will go to promote outragous theories based upon anomolous research, how the scaremongering tactics affect uptake rates and how important vaccinations are in preventing suffering and death.

Can you not see parallels with the USA story.


The real story, is in children who are already at risk and children who have a sensitivity to mercury. Believe it or not there is a population with a high degree of sensitivity to mercury - the same people who had health problems from amalgam fillings, which are generally not used at all in this country anymore because of that.

I've heard similar claims regarding Korean Fan Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death) That is to say that Koreans who support the belief in fan death claim that they have a unique physiology and what the worlds doctors and scientists have to say about the ridiculous nature of such claims has no bearing on Koreans. Obvouisly this is laughable. You claim that the USA poplulation has a unique sensistivity to mercury seem like it might be a similar cop out.

Before I simply dismiss it out of hand do you have any evidence?

Are there similar reactions on record for tuna - remember, a can of tuna contains more mercury than a vacination.

[JJM]

For more on the Geier idiots (and the horrible magazine Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons) go to this blog and search for Geier.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/