U.S intolerant?

[Alumno deVerum]

This is in response to something that was said in reply to me on another thread. I mentioned an incident that happened to me back in the early 80's when I was helping organize some protests against the teaching of Biblical creationism in the state where I lived.

Basically a brick with some pages from the Bible was thrown through my window by someone who probably had seen similar things done on TV and thought it was dramatic or something (just guessing on the motive I never found out who did it). Well the person who replied to that story implied that I was using it to "win" an argument. That is false. In fact I never made any claim even remotely resembling that. I merely wanted to convey to this person that he (or she I don't know thier gender) that even though I no longer consider myself an Atheist in the traditional sense (I am now a Deist) I was one once and did not need to be lectured on what it meant to be one having gone through that experiance.

But that's not what I found offense in. This person said that I had a persecution complex because I happened to live one of the most intolerant countries in the world. Are you kidding me? More intolerant than China? More intolerant than Pakistan? More intolerant than North Korea? What are smoking because I want some.

So anyway I thought he/she might find this article interesting:
http://www.uuworld.org/ideas/articles/47842.shtml

And by the way my very devout Christian neighbors helped me replace the window when all my Atheist "friends" wanted to do was exploit it. While there are certainly pockets of intolerance in the U.S. the country as a whole is very tolerant. There are still areas to be worked on such as gay rights but I work with several openly gay people and they have told me they are rarely discriminated against.

But I'm not surprised this person made those comments. He (she) seems to make a habit of talking about things they know nothing about.

[bobdezon]

It has been my experience that america only tends to be tolerant when the cameras are watching them. They have a self promoted image of tolerance, but while travelling the states I met several people who seemed to think black people were sub human, or that mexicans were destroying the economy etc. All I can say its a good job those people are not policy makers.

People just seem to be afraid of anything they dont understand.

[Alumno deVerum]

Oh really? Where in America were you? How long did you stay? Who did you see? What did you do? America is a big place with many cultures and peoples. Did you see them all? If you did I'd like to shake your hand because you've accomplished something nobody else has been able to do.

[bobdezon]

Dont be facetious, Ive spent time in the southern states, florida, texas alabama and louisiana. I spoke to many people during my stay there, and have been several times over the course of my life. It would be idiotic of you to assume I had personally visited over 350 million americans. I just sampled a small cross section of american people. Its good enough for any other statistical survey though isnt it?

[seren]

I think you'd quite easily find people to say intolerant and racist things in the UK too. We just don't have so much of the fundamentalist Christian intolerence over here.

[bobdezon]

Yeah, its like a remnant of the empire days or something. I think racism is utterly shite, and Im not being PC about it, theres just no need really.

[Alumno deVerum]

Dont be facetious, Ive spent time in the southern states, florida, texas alabama and louisiana. I spoke to many people during my stay there, and have been several times over the course of my life. It would be idiotic of you to assume I had personally visited over 350 million americans. I just sampled a small cross section of american people. Its good enough for any other statistical survey though isnt it?

Well I'm from Louisiana and I have to say that while there certainly are remnants of the old south still around, consider the Jenna seven case, they are evaporating fast. Most people here just are not intolerant. You should have seen how everyone, black, white, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and, yes, even Atheist pulled together after Katrina.

I live in Oklahoma now and am married to a beautiful woman of Creek Indian descent and none of the native Americans in her family nor any that I know from work have ever told me they have been discriminated against (I also have a Mexican nephew by marriage).

I am an emergency medical technician by trade and thus have the opportunity to go into the homes of many people of different backgrounds, ethnic groups, religions, and economic groups and while, as I said, I certainly do see intolerance it is just not as common as most people, especially those outside the U.S., seem to believe. No, on the whole Americans are very tolerant. It's kind of a "you can do your thing as long as I can do my thing" attitude.

I would like to ask you a question though. If it would be "idiotic" of me to assume you had visited over 350 million people (actually I assumed just the opposite because your reply bore so little resemblance to reality) wouldn't it be just as idiotic of you to assume something about an entire nation based on just a few visits to one general area? That is not a basis for a "statistical survey". If I had used input like that when I took statistics in college I would have flunked the course.

[ZERO]

While (http://While) there are certainly pockets of intolerance in the U.S. the country as a whole is very tolerant.
This seems backwards to me. Individuals can be tolerant but as a whole the country is intolerant.

This is all my own opinion. I have never been to the US and I've only met a couple of Americans. So I will comment on the perception of the US here. (Mainly my perception)
America is seen to be intolerant, hypocritical and ignorant of the rest of the world. They are swinging their weight all over the globe to suit their own selfish interests.
The fall of the USSR was the worst thing to happen. Now nobody can counter balance American activity.
C'mon China.

The few Yanks I have met have been nice, decent people.

[bobdezon]

I am not asserting that americans are all intolerant, just that remnant undercurrent which corrupts everything. This will hopefully dissapear as time progresses. I hate it when it used as an ideological tool. Racism is a ridiculous concept. If a black man beats your ass to a pulp why would you need to hate all black men? Just go looking for the asshole that gave you some lumps.

I found americans to be very nice and polite in general, but the impression of americans in europe is of loud mouthed exhaggerating bigots who believe they are gods own chosen children who are somehow more superior than anyone else.

I know that is not the case though, I blame that on incredibly stupid TV and rude tourists.

Bottom line is you should judge a man by his actions, not the colour of his skin.

[seren]

Couple of related musings:

Musing #1.


the impression of americans in europe is of loud mouthed exhaggerating bigots

I know by this you mean the impression that Europeans have of Americans, but I wonder if in fact this is based, in part, on seeing Americans in Europe? Tourists of any nationality are, without doubt, the worst ambassadors for their country. A lot of American tourists are particularly dreadful: loud, ignorant and patronizing. But they represent only a particular "type" of American- wealthy enough to afford world travel, almost invariably white (occasionally black but never ever hispanic), middle-aged etc.

Interestingly, my friend who's a tourist driver, born, brought up and lived his whole life in India, and is still without regular access to TV or the internet, holds many of the same stereotypes and prejudices about people as we do in the West. I found that really interesting- after 14 years driving tourists around Rajasthan, he told me that most Spanish do not wash, Italians talk too much, Americans are demanding and spoiled, Israelis are mean with their money and love to bargain, and Japanese people are funny and crazy. When I asked him which nationality he liked the best I think he said Dutch, which also fits into the stereotype of lovely liberal Hollanders.

Edit to add: he holds a very low opinion of Indian customers. They are mostly (I've seen it) VERY demanding and treat their drivers like servants.

Musing # 2.
Remember if we've not been to America (I haven't), then our perceptions will come from the meedja, for the most part that's been TV (although Youtube is changing all that). TV is ALWAYS going to show something that makes a good "story". Why show Mr and Mrs Average Yank when you can show the evil Nazi twin sister singing sensation, or some mad televangelist? What's going to make the news- "survey reveals majority of Americans are perfectly normal" or "George Bush bites head off snake in the name of Jesus" (or something). If you're a loud-mouthed exaggerating bigot, you're just more likely to get on TV. With the exception of Sesame Street.

Musing # 3.
Most people I've spoken to who've been to the States say Americans were friendly and polite. I'm sure this is true. But manners are no indication of tolerance or intolerance. I bet the aforementioned Nazi twin singing sensation have impeccable table manners.

[Legaleagle]

The fall of the USSR was the worst thing to happen. Now nobody can counter balance American activity.
C'mon China.

I hope you are not serious?

I know it's fasionable to be anti-American these days, but come on.

[bobdezon]

I hope you are not serious?

I know it's fasionable to be anti-American these days, but come on.


Hes got a point, no country should have carte blanche to do what they like. The USSR/US stalemate was fantastic. The only downside to a coldwar was being regularly told I could be nuked at any moment while I was in school. Remember those public information films that told you how to dispose of a body in you home etc? scary for a kid that.

Ive never been anti american, to me the brits yanks and aussies and kiwis and canadians are practically the same. The cultures are still very much interlinked. I think as long as we have sames, the differences can be sorted.

[Cuddles]

Hes got a point, no country should have carte blanche to do what they like.

The thing is, no country does. The main reason the US gets away with things is because most of the time everyone else agrees with them. Nobody liked Saddam, for example, but most countries weren't willing to actually do anything because of the lack of any good excuse and so on. However, when someone else decided to attack him, no-one really wanted to stop them, they just stood around saying how terrible it was. It's a bit like someone attacking the school bully. Most people aren't willing to do it themselves, but if someone else does, no-one will try to stop them. If they attacked a popular kid, things would be different. If the US decided to attack, say, Spain, there would be one hell of a fuss. The US only has a carte blanche to do what they like as long as what they like is what everyone else likes.

As for the US being intolerant, I have one thing to say - Top Gear. In how many countries would you have rocks thrown at you and threatened to be shot simply for saying gays are good and country and western isn't? And not just at anyone, but at the presenters of an extremely popular TV show, on camera. Yes, there are plenty of perfectly tolerant Americans, but there is a significant number of incredibly intolerant bigots who drag the whole country down.

[Legaleagle]

Hes got a point, no country should have carte blanche to do what they like. The USSR/US stalemate was fantastic. The only downside to a coldwar was being regularly told I could be nuked at any moment while I was in school. Remember those public information films that told you how to dispose of a body in you home etc? scary for a kid that.

Well OK you were only a kid at the time. But don't you think it's a bit crass to say things like the "fall of the USSR was the worst thing to happen" and "the only downside to the cold war was being regularly told I could be nuked at any moment". It astonshes me how people simply gloss over the evils perpetrated on billions of people by international communism as if all that was Ok because at least it kept the Americans in their place!

Have you ever heard of Stalin? Have you considered what happened in Prague in 1968 or in Romania in 1989? I suppose Mao's Cultural Revolution was just a publicity stunt by his publishers to sell more of those little red books in your worldview?



Ive never been anti american, to me the brits yanks and aussies and kiwis and canadians are practically the same. The cultures are still very much interlinked. I think as long as we have sames, the differences can be sorted.

I think all those people who criticise Americans so freely ought to hold a mirror up to themselves and their own countries occasionally. I think there are plenty of places you could go in Britain or Australia if you wanted to get stones thrown at you for preaching Gay rights or criticising people's musical taste.

[seren]

As for the US being intolerant, I have one thing to say - Top Gear.

As for what's wrong with Brits, I have one thing to say - Top Gear. ;)

[Legaleagle]

As for what's wrong with Brits, I have one thing to say - Top Gear. ;)

Oi! I won't have that. It's one of the only things worth watching on the box at the moment.>:-)

[ZERO]

I hope you are not serious?

I know it's fasionable to be anti-American these days, but come on.

I'm not anti-American. There is a lot to like with the US.
I'm definatly NOT pro-communism. The cold war had many downsides.
The world needs balance though.

[bobdezon]

Well OK you were only a kid at the time. But don't you think it's a bit crass to say things like the "fall of the USSR was the worst thing to happen" and "the only downside to the cold war was being regularly told I could be nuked at any moment". It astonshes me how people simply gloss over the evils perpetrated on billions of people by international communism as if all that was Ok because at least it kept the Americans in their place!

Not kept in their place, but every war has two sides even the cold ones. It provided a balance. Can you imagine a world with only one superpower? That would be horrible.


Have you ever heard of Stalin? Have you considered what happened in Prague in 1968 or in Romania in 1989? I suppose Mao's Cultural Revolution was just a publicity stunt by his publishers to sell more of those little red books in your worldview?

I could easilly bring up the tuskegee experiments the my lai massacre and guantanamo. No country is a immune from doing great wrongs (even if they control the press) Bottom line is power must have a balance.


I think all those people who criticise Americans so freely ought to hold a mirror up to themselves and their own countries occasionally. I think there are plenty of places you could go in Britain or Australia if you wanted to get stones thrown at you for preaching Gay rights or criticising people's musical taste.

Your talking to a britain, who once had an empire. I know full well countries can do great harm to others and act like a royal dick. You are preaching to the converted.

[Alumno deVerum]

How many people do you think saw the guys from Top Gear driving around and didn't do anything? Probably quite alot but they didn't show them because that wouldn't make very good TV.

When you go around looking for trouble you can find it in just about any country. And it doesn't take much editing to make it seem bigger than it really is. But what does that say about the instigators themselves? Doesn't a stunt like that betray a preexisting predjudice? If I went around provoking enough British football fans I would eventually run into some "hooligans" and get my ass kicked. But would I then be justified in saying all British people were like that?

Personally I like Top Gear. My daughter, whose boyfriend lives in Dawlish in Devon, introduced me to it on BBC America by the way.

[Cuddles]

How many people do you think saw the guys from Top Gear driving around and didn't do anything? Probably quite alot but they didn't show them because that wouldn't make very good TV.

Of course. That doesn't change the fact that some people did throw rocks and threaten to shoot them.


When you go around looking for trouble you can find it in just about any country. And it doesn't take much editing to make it seem bigger than it really is. But what does that say about the instigators themselves? Doesn't a stunt like that betray a preexisting predjudice? If I went around provoking enough British football fans I would eventually run into some "hooligans" and get my ass kicked.

If you really think you can find a single petrol station in Britain where writing "I like gays" on the side of your car would get the whole town to turn out and threaten to kill you, I would love to see the evidence.


But would I then be justified in saying all British people were like that?

Of course not. I guess it's just lucky that no-one has made any claims about all Americans.

[Mongrel]

Given that I'm the person (he by the way) I'd like to correct a few things


Basically a brick with some pages from the Bible was thrown through my window by someone who probably had seen similar things done on TV and thought it was dramatic or something (just guessing on the motive I never found out who did it). Well the person who replied to that story implied that I was using it to "win" an argument. That is false. In fact I never made any claim even remotely resembling that.

The quote in question was in fact
One more thing. I was an Atheist in the middle of the Bible belt when Christian groups all over the United States were trying to shove creationism down our throats. I do not need some Johnny come lately to tell me what Atheism is. When you get a brick with pages from the Bible tied to it thrown through your window then I will listen to what you have to say about that.
My bold


]But that's not what I found offense in. This person said that I had a persecution complex because I happened to live one of the most intolerant countries in the world. Are you kidding me? More intolerant than China? More intolerant than Pakistan? More intolerant than North Korea? What are smoking because I want some. My bold

The actual quote was
I'm sorry that you live in the most intolerant and bigoted first world countries

You can find the posts over here (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=879&page=7)

[seren]

Mongrel, for clarification, did you mean

I'm sorry that you live in one of the most intolerant and bigoted first world countries

or

I'm sorry that you live in the most intolerant and bigoted first world country ?

Cuz the current construction is unclear and I am a screaming pedant.

[Mongrel]

Mongrel, for clarification, did you mean

I'm sorry that you live in one of the most intolerant and bigoted first world countries

or

I'm sorry that you live in the most intolerant and bigoted first world country ?

Cuz the current construction is unclear and I am a screaming pedant.

B - sorry :-[ I'll turn myself in to the nearest grammar nazi

[seren]

:spank:

[Alumno deVerum]

I guess it's just lucky that no-one has made any claims about all Americans.

Semantics. I have not seen the episode in question so I can't really comment on it but that does seem to be what you are implying.