Japan says UFOs exist

[ZERO]

I have only disclosed a fraction of the experience for you all to rationalise and the best anyone has come up with is deja vu?
Thats the problem. You relate a small ammount of a vague, confusing story and then avoid answering questions.
You're trying to engineer no answer.



This implies I thought I had a vision of a neon cross only after I saw the new neon cross installed - this is madness!
.....and probably accurate.

I won't imply.
Your story so far is garbage.

[Mulder]

I have only disclosed a fraction of the experience for you all to rationalise and the best anyone has come up with is deja vu?

If you have so much experience then there must, if only on statistical grounds, be something a lot more impressive than this lame 'cross' story. So let's have it, please!

[DrS]

Do you think that teasing, and drip feeding tempting snippets of "information", makes you seem more mysterious? More interesting? Has it occurred to you that it just makes you look like a bit of a prat?

[SorryImPsychic]

Has it occurred to you that it just makes you look like a bit of a prat?

You can't live in a rational world and have experiences like mine without feeling like a total prat - but I have learned to live with that.:-[

[Toad]

If you judge my experience on the basis of your subjective experience...then your conclusions are quite understandable.
You have rated the experience highly improbable again on the basis of your subjective understanding.


You have then, in your own words explained why your story is doubted.

This is the point and usefulness of Science - to come to an understanding of our environment about which there can be no doubt. An understanding which is independent of subjective opinion and experience.

Until you can provide some proof that we can assert as fact or which at least can be considered a scientific theory (and can therefore be tested reliably) then any rational person will never accept your story as fact.

By extension, if you believe yourself to be a rational person, you will go and look for this independent proof for yourself (and if you find it please present it to us and everyone!) - I'm sure many here have done just this and found that in every case so far, no proofs of telepathy, ETs, God, <insert myth/legend/mystic beliefs here> exist.

Until you find and present your proof I think you can see that no amount of pleading on your part will change the mind of those for whom proof is the only sufficient measure of fact.


Merry Christmas!

Toad.

[SorryImPsychic]

.
By extension, if you believe yourself to be a rational person, you will go and look for this independent proof for yourself (and if you find it please present it to us and everyone!) -
Merry Christmas!

Toad.

Yes I am a rational person - and seeing what I saw at such a young age defies rational explination....Your best rational explanation is that it didn't happen as I say it did.

I have saught rational explanations - but they don't come...and that is not from a lack of wanting them - the one thing I dread in life is living a lie.

[Mulder]

A few weeks ago I was going along a road and saw a road sign I'd never noticed before. It struck me as odd because it was in a ridiculous position. Returning along the same road less than an hour later I looked for it but it wasn't there. I've looked for it again many times but, needless to say, it is never there.

What is the rational explanation? Obviously, there is no objective evidence that the sign ever existed. Therefore, it is likely that I'm the only one that ever saw it. I am not given to hallucinations but the brain can enter several types of semi-dream states while still conscious - such as hypnagogic or trance state. I think I was in a trance state due to the tedium of the journey.

There you have it. I 'know what I saw' (as they say) but I also know it wasn't objectively there. I saw something that wasn't there but I have a rational explanation which doesn't require me to 'live a lie'. Nor should you.

Now, where are some of these other experiences you've mentioned. I'm sure you have much better ones than the 'cross' story. I've no idea why you mentioned that as evidential. I've come across many far more convincing stories of strangeness over the years. Your 'cross' story barely even registers on the 'weird meter'! So come on, tell us something truly interesting and evidential!

[SorryImPsychic]

.... I think I was in a trance state due to the tedium of the journey.

I 'know what I saw' (as they say) but I also know it wasn't objectively there.....

So come on, tell us something truly interesting and evidential!

All you can say definatively about the mystery sign is that you cognitively noted it, but when you returned it was gone...you cannot conclude you imagined it just because it was missing on return journy.
By the way what did the sign say?

I'll keep this as simple as possible:

I was asleep and something woke me and I looked out from my bedroom window. I observed the stars...but something in the distant sky caught my eye. It looked like a ball slowly floating closer to me - it floates past the famous church and that is when the cross rises at about 45 degee angle across the sky. My eyes follow it and other (what I know now to be symbols) are appearing in the sky - I look back to the floating ball - it is slowly getting closer...then I continue looking at the other objects in the sky (Im really not sure of sequence now). The ball stops and the I can see something is emerging from the ball it is a figure which starts slowly floating in direction towards me. It is small really but grows in realistic proportions as it gets closer...then it is right outside my window. I am not frightened and the figure is levitating to be at my level.

It does not speak but somehow communicates to me to look to the sky and the stars (masses of them are falling from the sky). I also see neon writen words begin to appear - and this bewilders me because I cannot read them...but One word is written - vanishes - then another word - is written - then vanishes. (All in handwriting script) . The figure then communicates for me to look at what it is holding in its hand - it is long like grass to me - but it was definately Wheat I now know. Then I had to observe some other things and last was the knot in its belt.

I can RELUCTANTLY say that it might have been a graphic dream - but there are things in it that make sense only if you accept more "non-rational" explanations...then the sense it all makes is significant.

[Toad]

Well given what you've described here, I don't think what your experience is particularly unusual. In fact, you've said you feel a "prat" for it earlier - I don't know why, I think you'll find the vast majority of people have had experiences in their past which they struggle to explain without reference to concepts that are considered fantastical.

You could differentiate your experience from others by finding evidence to confirm or deny what you saw. For example, stars moving would certainly have been detected by the various astronomical devices around, the things you saw outside your window may have been observed by others and so on.

However I'd say none of the evidential stuff matters, since the thing that strikes me as most compelling is this :


I can RELUCTANTLY say that it might have been a graphic dream - but there are things in it that make sense only if you accept more "non-rational" explanations...then the sense it all makes is significant.

You say you reluctantly accept the possiblity it was a dream (or by extension some other form of waking vision).

This raises a point about Humans - we trust our own senses and comprehension. It's not a choice we make, it's an evolutionary imperative and our ancestors who survived, are those who made best use of their senses and awareness to avoid dangers, gather food, court mates etc.

As we've come to know more about Human brain functions, we know that while it is very powerful it is often inaccurate - the brain provides abstractions that allow us to survive, while protecting us from things that may be dangerous by relating known experience to unknown things.

What happens though when the mind is presented with information it can't understand? Well it makes a best guess for us based on the limited data available - it would be no good from an evolutionary perspective, for our brains to simply shut down, or even insist that we determine every detail of something (walking closer to a nasty looking animal we haven't seen before to check it's blood type for example).

In your experience some words were written - do you know what the words were? Could you read at the time? You said you've subsequently realised you were shown Wheat - ever tried a magic eye puzzle? For many it's extremely difficult to see an image, but once it is seen your brain cannot help but see it from then on - once your brain is able to make a match of something known to the unknown, it just fills in the blank for you. Many times the brain isn't 100% accurate in this but for everyday survival it is sufficient.

So what does all that mean? Well, presented with two possible scenarios

i) An understood and observable process whereby an experience can be explained - however this explanation goes against the understanding of the person having the experience.

ii) A reference to beings and physical effects which have never been proven to exist (despite much searching) and which would require the side-stepping of many laws which have served us so well for hundreds of years - however this improbable scenario agrees with the senses and cognisance of the person having the experience.

Personally I would go for i) unless I could prove to myself that ii) was absolutely the case. Proof in this instance would be something corroborated by others (and ideally by instrumentation) and that could be subsequently repeated, measured and observed.

However, judging by the number of people claiming to believe in God(s) I am in the minority and most would simply go with their intuition.

There's not a right or wrong in that, it's not natural for me (or anyone I imagine!) to assume their own senses and mind may be inaccurate, but a bit of research shows that is often the case.

As I said at the start, in broad terms your experience isn't unusual at all - the people frequenting this site have (for the most part) concluded those kinds of experience have rational explanations and are happy with that in lieu of further evidence to the contrary.

Out in "the World" (tm) you'll probably find most people can recount their own experiences and insist that they are true and accurate, but at the same time, are Skeptical of your experience...

Toad.

[SorryImPsychic]

I think you'll find the vast majority of people have had experiences in their past which they struggle to explain

You say you reluctantly accept the possiblity it was a dream (or by extension some other form of waking vision).

This raises a point about Humans - we trust our own senses and comprehension....

So what does all that mean? ii) A reference to beings and physical effects which have never been proven to exist

the people frequenting this site have (for the most part) concluded those kinds of experience have rational explanations and are happy with that in lieu of further evidence to the contrary.

Toad.

Thanks for this response. I could not read at the time (4yrs old) and the falling stars where hallucinations as were everything - but I believe the alien caused them. Note "BELIEVE" - I admit I don't know for sure.

So I have to go with scenario two.

But we really have to get off this issue cause it cannot be resolved.

[Mulder]

All you can say definatively about the mystery sign is that you cognitively noted it, but when you returned it was gone...you cannot conclude you imagined it just because it was missing on return journy.
By the way what did the sign say?

Didn't really see what the sign said - it was a round one. I agree there is a slight possibility that someone erected the sign there as a joke and removed it before I returned, rather less than an hour later. The odds that I just happened to pass twice around the period when it was removed seem rather long to me. That's why I go with the trance theory.

Your experience sounds like either a dream or hypnogogic state. I've had hypnogogic experiences - they are a weird mixture of reality and dream that can feel very scary.

[Mulder]

SorryImPsychic - are you EVER going to tell us about these other amazing experiences of yours? You've really done this whole 'cross' experience to death and, as far as I can see, there's nothing of any interest in it (sorry). So please, please, please let us here some different experiences...

[Toad]

Thanks for this response. I could not read at the time (4yrs old) and the falling stars where hallucinations as were everything - but I believe the alien caused them. Note "BELIEVE" - I admit I don't know for sure.

Why does it have to be an Alien - why can't it simply be Brain Chemistry?

Or to put it another way, how could you tell the difference between

i) Naturally occuring hallucination/vision/dream or whatever you'd like to call it.

ii) An ET who had the power to make you hallucinate/see a vision/dream.

iii) A Dead person who had the power to make you hallucinate/see a vision/dream.

iv) A God who had the power to make you hallucinate/see a vision/dream.

v) <Insert Thing here> who had the power to make you hallucinate/see a vision/dream.

You claim that the things that subsequently happened in "reality" were predicted in the experience, and from that you conclude only (ii) can be possible.

My response is that many people have had a similar vision and subsequently had a real experience sufficiently close that they believe it was foretold. Those people don't ascribe the event to ET. Some of them say dead people, some say God, some say time travellers, Unicorns etc etc.

Rational people say brain chemistry/coincedence/deja vu etc/foibles of the Human mind unless other evidence becomes available.

Of the two groups, the rational people have evidence to support their conclusion, the dead folk/ET/God/Unicorn group(s) do not.

Note the dead folk/ET/God/Unicorn group don't offer the "unless other evidence becomes available" clause - they're sold on their belief as you are in yours. No amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them.





So I have to go with scenario two.

But we really have to get off this issue cause it cannot be resolved.Ergo, you are not considering the position rationally because it is your experience and that overrides rationality for you - no evidence I offer to the contrary will sway that view. However I will change my view the instant you offer some verifiable evidence.

It doesn't matter to me what you take away from your experience, given the claimed "prediction" has had no effect anyway (apart from wasting some time thinking about it) and it doesn't look like it will matter to you whether you believe ET did it or not.

The only reason to discuss it is because some people (myself included) are interested in things like the existence of ET. Sadly, there are plenty of people who engage in wishful thinking and describe it as proof of ET (amongst other things). This impedes any real discussion of the topic as has happened in this thread.

Toad.

[Mongrel]

Thanks for this response. I could not read at the time (4yrs old) and the falling stars where hallucinations as were everything - but I believe the alien caused them.


And what about the explanation that kids have very good imaginations?

[SorryImPsychic]

And what about the explanation that kids have very good imaginations?

Yes kids have active imaginations - but my imagination in this case then would have to be drawing on things that were not in conscious awareness.

[DrS]

Do you think that's unusual in children? In my experience, that's exactly what fantasy is! :undecided:

[Mongrel]

Yes kids have active imaginations - but my imagination in this case then would have to be drawing on things that were not in conscious awareness.

In what way?

You may have seen something on telly and forgotten about it is the most likely explanation, especially for a four year old.

[SorryImPsychic]

In what way?

You may have seen something on telly and forgotten about it is the most likely explanation, especially for a four year old.

Well at the time I sure was not consciously aware of the existance of religious crosses, churches, falling stars, UFOs, sheaves of wheat, etc let alone seeing anything like the alien floating across the sky or what it was wearing. Please, you don't trust this experience - but you must realise it is just as INCREDIBLE for me - but it is vividly registered in memory as actual experience.

[Mulder]

Well at the time I sure was not consciously aware of the existance of religious crosses, churches, falling stars, UFOs, sheaves of wheat, etc let alone seeing anything like the alien floating across the sky or what it was wearing. Please, you don't trust this experience - but you must realise it is just as INCREDIBLE for me - but it is vividly registered in memory as actual experience.

So, are you now claiming that you understood the religious and extra-terrestrial symbolism of your dream as soon as you had it? I don't think so! Children pick up information like sponges, only later organising into its correct context (or, in some cases, never managing to). You will obviously have noticed churches, crosses, stars before your dream, whether you understood their meaning or not. Your dream simply put those elements together for whatever reason.

I cannot understand why you attach so much significance to a dream you had when you were a kid. We all had fantastic dreams as kids - so what? Most of us have subsequently realised that dreams have little or no literal importance.

I'm still waiting for these OTHER experiences you claim you've had. Why are you so reluctant to talk about them? It was YOU that raised the matter! Let me take a wild guess - were you ever abducted by aliens?

[SorryImPsychic]

So, are you now claiming that you understood the religious and extra-terrestrial symbolism of your dream as soon as you had it? I don't think so!

I'm still waiting for these OTHER experiences you claim you've had. Why are you so reluctant to talk about them? It was YOU that raised the matter! Let me take a wild guess - were you ever abducted by aliens?

Are you thick Mr Mulder? I saw various things during the experience - they didn't connotate anything significant to me at the time - I was simply observer - no value judgements - nothing. The remembrance of these things remained and as I grew older I could understand what these things were but I grappled with explaining meaning.

One of the most meaningful things to me now is the Neon Writing in the sky - this makes sense with current theories of
Plasma Cosmology/Electric Universe.

No abductions - just an inexplicable memory of something like that.

[Mulder]

No, not thick, just trying to understand why find this dream you had as a kid so exciting. My point was this - had you had any understanding of the supposed symbolic significance in your dream at the time then it WOULD have been extraordinary and interesting.

Instead, you have interpreted your dream later on through the lens on later beliefs that you have accumulated. These beliefs are obviously important to you and, thus, so is the dream.

[DrS]

Neon writing = Northern or Southern Lights?? That would be awesome at any age, and an imaginative 4 year old might see it as a message or writing of some kind.

[ZERO]

I'm sure I read somewhere that memories can change over time, sometimes quite a lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if the event/experience was (is?) different to the memory.

Does anyone know of any studies covering this?

[Fiona]

http://books.google.com/books?id=BggJjhbBJzwC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=memory+changes+over+time+research+criminology&source=web&ots=3hzRMPKS1n&sig=68DTJdEw1Ti6g3ioT7hTvRUpJjY#PPA115,M1

Not directly relevant but interesting in this context I think

[SorryImPsychic]

Neon writing = Northern or Southern Lights?? That would be awesome at any age, and an imaginative 4 year old might see it as a message or writing of some kind.

It was clearly cursive writing - please stop with the rationalised explanations they are so off the mark.