The dark side of the church.

[bindeweede]

This is what I was trying to post.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,676497,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-51556.html




(http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-51556.html)

[Croydon Bob]

The "dark side" implies a light side. I'm not sure that there is a light side.

[bruce]

plus ça change.

[Mr.Smoketoomuch]

There is no dark side of the church.
Matter of fact it's all dark.



I'll get me coat

[Dubious Dick]

Have long been hoping that this whole issue will snowball to such a point that the claims seriously financially cripple the Catholic church. Wouldn't a successful class action against the Vatican be a marvellous thing.

[Croydon Bob]

Wouldn't a successful class action against the Vatican be a marvellous thing.

Unfortunately the Vatican being recognised as a country and Pope Benny 16 a head-of-state makes this more complicated. But the people who have suffered at the hands of this evil empire should still try.

[chaggle]

Have long been hoping that this whole issue will snowball to such a point that the claims seriously financially cripple the Catholic church. Wouldn't a successful class action against the Vatican be a marvellous thing.

Here's a start

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Market-Weighton-care-home-abuse-victim-hails-payout-ruling/article-1482471-detail/article.html


A children's home abuse victim who is eligible for part of a £8m compensation payout today insisted that 'it was never about the money'.

Rape victim Graham Baverstock spoke out after a judge ruled that the Roman Catholic Middlesbrough Diocese was responsible for running an East Riding children's home where 142 boys were abused.

The boys were sexually assaulted at St William's Community Home in Market Weighton between 1972 and 1990 in one of the country's biggest abuse cases.

And more...

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sexabus3.htm


Abused altar boys sue Church for millions

The Catholic Church in the United States has been ordered to pay $120 million in damages to 10 former altar boys, and the parents of another, who were sexually assaulted by a priest.
Father Rudolph Kos abused boys over an eleven year period. When they complained, the church covered it up. Kos allegedly abused the boys on hundreds of occasions at three different churches in Dallas.

And more...

http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-03-05/US_court_allows_sexual_abuse_victims_to_sue_Vatica n.html


A US court ruling has opened way for sexual abuse victims to sue the Vatican for its role in the cover-up of molestations by priests, AFP news agency reports.

From the same article...


In 2007 the Catholic Church in the United States paid out US$ 615 million in settlement of sexual abuse cases.

Bloody hell!! That's a lot of money!!

[Marmite_Man]

The "dark side" implies a light side. I'm not sure that there is a light side.

There can't be dark without light, at least that's what my faith head brother seems to think. As an atheist i'm obviously a satanist right?

[Graham Lappin]

I am an atheist as well but I am not sure I can agree to the arguments that seem to be developing here. There seems to be an implication that sexual abuse and the Catholic Church are synonymous which is really not true. I understand that the policies and doctrine of the Catholic Church may not sit well on this forum but the assumption that there is a correlation has not been critically thought through, it seems to me. There may be bad priests as there are corrupt policeman but the latter does not then automatically lead to the conclusion that all law enforcement is corrupt anymore that a blanket conclusion can be drawn about the Catholic Church. Terms like "Evil Empire" (Bob) are very emotive and do not describe the majority of the priesthood or believers in my experience.

No question that many of the doctrines of this organised religion should be questioned, as indeed with any religion but it should be tackled rationally and I don't see that has emerged in this thread so far.

OK - I have strapped on my bullet-proof vest and I am waiting for the cross-fire. Bring it on >:D

[chaggle]

But there is much evidence that the Catholic Church had knowledge of, and covered up the activities of its priests.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/11/26/ireland.religion.abuse/index.html


(CNN) -- The Archdiocese of Dublin and other Catholic Church authorities in Ireland covered up clerical child abuse until the mid-1990s, according to a government-commissioned report released Thursday.
The Dublin Archdiocese Commission of Investigation's 720-page report said that it has "no doubt that clerical child sexual abuse was covered up" from January 1975 to May 2004, the time covered by the report.
"The Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets," the report said.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,676497,00.html


Their shock stems not only from the fact that there are pedophiles in the church, as there are elsewhere in society. It also comes from the fact that the church systematically protected the perpetrators and ignored the victims, and that it repressed and covered up sexual abuse in its own ranks for decades -- and in doing so enabled pedophile priests to leave behind a trail of emotional devastation throughout Germany.

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/extras/coverups_archive.htm


A history of secrecy, coverups in Boston Archdiocese

Church documents, official testimony, and victim interviews gathered over the past year paint an extraordinary picture of secrecy and deception in the Boston Archdiocese; a culture in which top church officials coddled abusive priests and permitted them to molest again, while stonewalling or paying off the victims of that abuse.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church is rotten to the core in this matter

[Pebble]

I
OK - I have strapped on my bullet-proof vest and I am waiting for the cross-fire. Bring it on >:D

The problem I think arises from the subtle difference between catholics and the catholic church. The church is a monolythic structure that adapts mainly for growth and survival. The conservative position over the past 30 years brings new members especially from poorer countries. which can be viewed as representing the poor or preserving ones power base. The fixation on sexual behaviour may well be one of the reasons for its success in countries with poorly enforced laws to protect women from unwanted male sexual advances. This hardly justifies its stance on homosexuality or masturbation which are really just remnants of its desire to control the thoughts of its adherents using pretexts barely mentioned in the bible. The 'chastity' requirement was initially introduced, around 1100 I think, to ensure that church property and gifts to the church remained in the hands of the church in perpetuity. It continues to support that position today, this can be reasonably linked to the apparent excess of sexually deviant individuals attracted to become priests or nuns. The governance structures have also remained conservative, with the 19th century position that covering problems up does the greater long term good remaining firmly in place long after everyone else in western democracies had realised this cannot continue.
So I think it is reasonable to support a contention that the catholic church is a vile and reprehensible corporate entity, in need of root and branch reform. Catholics on the other hand just believe a load of old nonsense, their hearts may be in the right place and indeed many do stirling work and operate in a truly altruistic manner, unfortunately this is often used as cover for less attractive activities either knowingly or unknowingly by themselves (conversion), or by less scrupulous associates.

[Cuddles]

There may be bad priests as there are corrupt policeman but the latter does not then automatically lead to the conclusion that all law enforcement is corrupt anymore that a blanket conclusion can be drawn about the Catholic Church.

The problem here is the conflation between the Catholic Church, Catholicism, and Christianity and religion in general. The Catholic Church really is a monolithic organisation and business. While it's certainly true that the actions of some people within the Church do not necessarily reflect on the majority of people who belong to it, the actions of the organisation itself very much reflect on the organisation as a whole.

As others have noted, there is very good evidence that the Catholic Church as an organisation has engaged in severe criminal practice in numerous countries over a prolonged period of at least a few decades. While it may not be fair to characterise all Catholics as child molesters because of this, it is entirely fair to blame the Catholic Church as a whole, and to call for criminal prosecution and massive fines, at the least.

The police is not really a good analogy, since most people agree that that is a necessary public service. Even if you have severe corruption within a police force, it calls for reform and action against individuals. The Church, on the other hand, is a private business. If offences are serious enough, there is no reason not to shut it down as you would any other business. Take the recent fun we've had with banks, for example. No doubt there are many people working for them who are perfectly sensible and law abiding who shouldn't have any personal action taken against them. But that doesn't change that a bank as an organisation may have severely mismanaged funds and need action taken against it as an organisation.

Similarly, the vast majority of Catholics are perfectly lovely people. But that doesn't change that the organisation as a whole is criminally corrupt, and really needs some severe action taken against it.

[Graham Lappin]

The problem I think arises from the subtle difference between catholics and the catholic church. ......


The problem here is the conflation between the Catholic Church, Catholicism, and Christianity and religion in general.....

I don't have any problem with the arguments from Pebble or Cuddles - fair enough. These arguments could apply to many organisations. Perhaps I misinterpreted the thread prior to those posts but it just seemed to me to be a vastly wide over generalisation.

[Legaleagle]

Frankly, I smell a witch-hunt againt the Catholic church here (irony noted!).

I agree with Graham here. There's something slightly strange about the way people argue the case against the Catholic Church as if the organisation were deliberately infiltrating peados into the community and then protecting them from the law.

It might help if Bindeweed had explained why he entitled this thread "The dark side of the church".

If it was meant to refer to Peados lurking in the confessional box, then there is no substance to it, as available statistical analysis does not find any greater incidence of reported abuse of children under the care of Roman Catholic priests than any other profession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandals#Comparison_with_oth er_professions

If the "dark side" is in fact the alleged cover up by Catholic hierarchy of abuse cases which have been reported to them then I would urge that the sources and reports be re-read (not the newspaper/prosecutors "spin"). The so called cover up is nothing of the sort. A misguided and ineffectual attempt to deal with matters in-house, coluded in by the secular governments involved (hence by society as a whole) but certainly not denial, or even a cover up in any meaningful sense. Individual cases must be looked at and not taken out of their context. For example, if we are going to examine the mental and physical abuse infliced on young boys by the Catholic Brothers in Ireland in the early parts of this century, are we really saying that no-one knew about it? Have you read James Joyces Portrait of the Artist? it's quite a well known book. This is no cover up, just an attempt by some to apply the mores and morals of the UK in 2010 to the Ireland of the early 20th Centrury.

Let's condemn the individuals involved, who certainly knew they were doing wrong, broke the law and every duty they owed to those children whom they harmed. Let's condemn the old ineffectual system of treating, rehabilitating and moving priests who were found guilty of sex abuse rather than prosecuting imprisoning and exposing them. If the victims want to try and legally establish liability on the part of the various Diocese of the church and extract compensation than I wish them well.

However, let's not build up a conspiracy theory about the church condoning those who harm children and protecting those who do as there just is no evidence for this. Let's leave the consipracy nonsene to the woos.

[Pebble]

Frankly, I smell a witch-hunt againt the Catholic church here (irony noted!).


If it was meant to refer to Peados lurking in the confessional box, then there is no substance to it, as available statistical analysis does not find any greater incidence of reported abuse of children under the care of Roman Catholic priests than any other profession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandals#Comparison_with_oth er_professions



However, let's not build up a conspiracy theory about the church condoning those who harm children and protecting those who do as there just is no evidence for this. Let's leave the consipracy nonsene to the woos.

The data on this subject are frankly not worth the paper they are written on, but that will now change.

However, no conspiracy theory is necessary when you can read the facts - as admitted by the church. Of note when the state took over care homes in the UK, this was resisted in Ireland and the catholic church remained unchallanged in this area until the 1990s. While there were anecdotes before 1980, only then did series of cases that demanded public scrutiny emerge.

http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/03-19.php


This volume of the Commission’s report presents the compiled oral evidence of over 1,000 witnesses who attended the Confidential Committee to report their childhood experiences of abuse in Irish institutions between 1914 and 2000. In most instances the reported abuse occurred while witnesses were in the care of the State. They reported being physically, sexually and emotionally abused and neglected by religious and lay adults who had responsibility for their care, and by others in the absence of adequate care and supervision.

More than 90% of all witnesses reported being physically abused while in out-of-home care. In addition to being hit and beaten witnesses described other forms of abuse such as being flogged, kicked and otherwise physically assaulted, scalded, burned and held under water. Witnesses reported being beaten publicly in front of other staff, residents, patients and pupils as well as in private. Many reports were heard of witnesses being beaten naked and partially clothed, both in private and in front of others. They reported being beaten and physically assaulted with implements that were for the specific purpose of inflicting pain and punishment, such as leather straps, bamboo canes and wooden sticks. In addition, witnesses gave evidence that everyday implements were routinely utilised for the purpose of striking children. Witnesses described pervasive abuse as part of their daily lives.

Witnesses reported being sexually abused by religious and lay staff in the schools and institutions and by co-residents and others, including professionals, both within and external to the institutions. They also reported being sexually abused by members of the general public, including volunteer workers, visitors, work placement employers, foster parents, and others who had unsupervised contact with residents in the course of everyday activities. Sexual abuse was reported to have occurred both within the institutions and when children were taken away for excursions, holidays or to work for others.

Disclosing sexual abuse generally provoked disbelief and further abuse. Witnesses who disclosed sexual abuse were subjected to severe recrimination by those who had responsibility for their care and protection. Female witnesses described, at times, being told they were responsible for the sexual abuse they experienced, by both their abuser and those to whom they disclosed abuse.

[bindeweede]

Legaleagle, "The dark side of the church" is the title given in the article to the series of images found in the second link.

[Dubious Dick]

I would certainly like to see a study of the effects of enforced celibacy on sexual behaviour. I find it highly unlikely that this un-natural method of property retention, as opposed to any religious belief, has not had an impact.

Of course, to add to the charge sheet one can lay vast numbers of deaths and huge amount of suffering caused by the opposition to birth control and abortion. Should we mention Saint Mother Theresa here?

If the combination of the these issues is not condemnation enough, I beg to ask what would be?

[Pebble]

Lest anyone mistakenly think the report into Irish Catholic priests refers to early in the 20th century it does not. Though from the 1980s on their control on incare children diminished considerably and the abuse rate subsequently fell, this remained a problem in to the 1990s.

Example

http://news.smh.com.au/world/sexabuse-report-haunts-irish-catholics-20081224-74j9.html

The report found that Magee and his senior advisers in the County Cork diocese of Cloyne fielded a range of complaints from parishioners about two priests from 1995 onward - but told the police nothing until 2003 and little thereafter. The report said Cloyne church authorities appeared to be solely concerned about helping the two priests, not protecting the children of the area.

[Graham Lappin]

.....Of course, to add to the charge sheet one can lay vast numbers of deaths and huge amount of suffering caused by the opposition to birth control and abortion.....

If the combination of the these issues is not condemnation enough, I beg to ask what would be?

I interpreted the initial posts as equating the organised upper echelons of the catholic church with the everyday followers, which I thought was decidedly wrong. Perhaps I misinterpreted this and certainly subsequent posts have been somewhat more analytical and expressive. The priests I have talked to I thought very misguided rather than deliberately evil. I will now withdraw.

[Pebble]

I interpreted the initial posts as equating the organised upper echelons of the catholic church with the everyday followers, which I thought was decidedly wrong. Perhaps I misinterpreted this and certainly subsequent posts have been somewhat more analytical and expressive. The priests I have talked to I thought very misguided rather than deliberately evil. I will now withdraw.

It does get very close to the issue of religious hatred, and on the other thread racism. The question I suppose is how to deal with being highly indignant at aspects of behaviour, without allowing this to spill over or apparently spill over into overt hatred. However, analytical one pretends to be, it is the emotive response that leads to the effort required to gather and analyze the evidence. This is I think true on both sides of the argument, hence the heat.

It is nevertheless odd to see so much righteous indignation on a skeptics site!