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Muse
27th March 2006, 03:00 PM
Bad news for atheists living in the US at least.

According to a recent telephone poll sampling over 2000 households here (http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find) conducted by the University of Minnesota "Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.”

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Furthermore, atheists were found to occupy the position once held by Catholics, Jews and Communists in the past in delineating a symbolic moral boundary to membership of American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behaviour to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes that a fear of moral decline and consequent social disorder lies behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

No wonder ID has such a hold if they believe this nonsense. But while belief is one thing reality is another. A study conducted last year see here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) suggested that belief in a creator was the root of all evil for the world’s largest democracy not the athiest. Contrary to America’s perception Gregory Paul’s research indicated that a Godless society believing in evolution may well be more moral than one which believes in a creator.

Paul found that "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies…”The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

– Veritably a study to cheer anyone who’s ever seriously questioned the myth of the all-seeing vengeful fairy in the sky.

Paul goes on to comment "There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularisation, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms."

He concluded that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

Enough to warm the cockles of an atheist's heart……… :D

Admin
27th March 2006, 06:30 PM
Equating religiosity with morality and law abidance is a fallacy that most, if not all, religious people fall for. If it were true, the religiose USA would be one of the safest places in the world to visit!

It only takes a few minutes of listening to a fundamentalist Christian talking about the issue of homosexuality to get to know their stance on tolerance and equality.

The big problem with their way of thinking is that they know they are right. Peter Bowditch did a great article on this way of thinking: http://www.ratbags.com/skepticism/index.html

Muse
28th March 2006, 03:11 PM
Thanks John I enjoyed that.

Its a constant frustration that skeptics are continually accused of believing in nothing because they are perceived as doubting everything.

That's not true. They only want to believe in what can be determined by the evidence. The rest is open to question.

Pity the US don't take more time to scrutinise the evidence of their own crime figures and confront this nonsense. It may shatter their comfy cosy godly perceptions but it could put them on the road to a 'salvation' of sorts. After all as Paul's study has shown a godless society really isn't so bad.

Lord Muck oGentry
17th April 2006, 10:12 PM
A link here to show that the theistic case for founding morality on religion is a bad one:

http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-moralityandreligion.shtml

Hazen
22nd April 2006, 12:02 AM
September 27, 2005

The Times

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.

Aardvark
30th April 2006, 06:22 PM
I have been quite disturbed by this thread.

I am Atheist. I have high moral values. I attempt to be both humanitarian and pro planet.

Yet this would make me some kind of terrorist in the USA?????

tkingdoll
30th April 2006, 06:51 PM
I have been quite disturbed by this thread.

I am Atheist. I have high moral values. I attempt to be both humanitarian and pro planet.

Yet this would make me some kind of terrorist in the USA?????



To some people, yes. George Dubya hasn't gone as far as his father in stating that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens, but I expect that's an opinion dear to his heart.

I get the impression that to many Americans, "atheist" is the same as "communist" - they know it's something to run from and be fearful of, they know it's something that will attack the very fabric of decent society and possibly result in babies being eaten. They just can't quite tell you why... ::)

My guitarist recently discovered I am an atheist. He couldn't quite bring himself to say 'you' for some reason (I think that's cause he thinks highly of me and couldn't associate me with heathen godlessness somehow). He said "but atheists, where do they get their morals from?". He literally couldn't imagine having any if not those dictated by a god.

I laughed and said that you don't need god to be a decent person, and asked him if he was only good because he was afraid of upsetting god. He said no, so I said "well, same for me, without the god bit".

Aardvark
4th May 2006, 08:40 PM
I have been quite disturbed by this thread.

I am Atheist. I have high moral values. I attempt to be both humanitarian and pro planet.

Yet this would make me some kind of terrorist in the USA?????



To some people, yes. George Dubya hasn't gone as far as his father in stating that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens, but I expect that's an opinion dear to his heart.

I get the impression that to many Americans, "atheist" is the same as "communist" - they know it's something to run from and be fearful of, they know it's something that will attack the very fabric of decent society and possibly result in babies being eaten. They just can't quite tell you why... ::)

My guitarist recently discovered I am an atheist. He couldn't quite bring himself to say 'you' for some reason (I think that's cause he thinks highly of me and couldn't associate me with heathen godlessness somehow). He said "but atheists, where do they get their morals from?". He literally couldn't imagine having any if not those dictated by a god.

I laughed and said that you don't need god to be a decent person, and asked him if he was only good because he was afraid of upsetting god. He said no, so I said "well, same for me, without the god bit".




Yep, me too. Well said.

From a behavioural poit of view, co operation is more likley to result in your survival and replication of your gene pool.

Most people want to pay their bills, put food on the table, see thier kids get a good education ,make a good marriage or partnership and do a little better than they did themselves and help out their neighbours and have a little money left to let their hair down one in a while. My fiends who are Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddist, and atheist humanitarian all agree on these things.

I do it because it is the right thing to do, for me, for you, for us all. This is a one shot deal for me, I have no redemption or afterlife to look forwards to, my legacy is in the thoughts that I leave and the honour and value that I nurture in my kids and the people around me.

tkingdoll
5th May 2006, 01:12 PM
There's a guy on the JREF forum who believes that Atheists encourage sociopaths and murderers because believing you have no soul excuses you from moral behavior. He doesn't seem to see that more atrocities have been committed in the name of a deity than in the name of none.

Mojo
5th May 2006, 09:10 PM
When a theist makes the claim that you can't behave morally without the fear of divine retribution, well, it says something rather nasty about the theist's character, doesn't it?

Aardvark
6th May 2006, 11:27 AM
When a theist makes the claim that you can't behave morally without the fear of divine retribution, well, it says something rather nasty about the theist's character, doesn't it?


I have known some very born again types who could not see the irony in them hating certain sections of society.

I have seen spiteful and derisive behaviour deomstrated by some of my Christian colleagues.

Lord Muck oGentry
7th May 2006, 02:03 PM
When a theist makes the claim that you can't behave morally without the fear of divine retribution, well, it says something rather nasty about the theist's character, doesn't it?


Spinoza said a good thing about this type: " I see in what mud this man sticks. He is one of those who would follow after his own lust, if he were not restrained by the fear of Hell. He abstains from evil actions and fulfils God's command like a slave against his will, and for his bondage he expects to be rewarded by God with gifts far more to his taste than Divine love, and great in proportion to his original dislike of virtue."

huw-l
14th May 2006, 09:59 PM
George H.W. Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Dubya's dad on athiests

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_03/008488.php