Are We Making Too Much Fuss?

[Zaira]

I wonder if we are making a lot of fuss about nothing.

Here is a little Zen story. Not sure I remember it all but here goes...

A Zen student asked a Zen master some questions and they went something like this...

>>>
"Have you seen God, sir?"
"Yes, I have."

"Have you seen the Buddha-nature, sir?"
"Yes, I have."

"Have you seen the Emptiness, sir?"
"Yes, I have."

"Have you seen the Cosmic Consciousness, sir?"
"Yes, I have."

"When and where did you see those?"

"When I saw them I knew I saw them, when I did not see them I knew I did not see them. Where did I see them? I saw God at any time I happened to be at a church. I saw the Buddha-nature and the Emptiness at any time I happened to be at a Buddhist monastery. I saw the Cosmic Consciousness at any time I happened to be at a Hindu temple."

"Could you tell me what did each of them look like, sir?"

"You are asking a very intelligent question, Venerable Sir. If I could remember correctly what I asked the people at those places, then it would be a similar question with yours now, but none of them could answer the question even they talked fluently about each of those. This was all of what I saw, heard and knew about God, the Buddha-nature, the Emptiness, and the Cosmic Consciousness, Venerable Sir."

"So, was there any difference happened to you before you saw and heard of them and after you did?"

"Okay, let me ask you, have you seen the sun, Venerable Sir?"
"Yes, I have."

"When did you see the sun and when did you not?"

"I see the bright sun clearly during the day when there is no clouds covering it. And I do not see it during the night, you know, sir."

"Of course! Of course!"

"So, was there any difference happened to you when you saw the bright sun and when you do not see it?"

"Of course, not. I was still what or who I was whether I saw the bright sun during the day or I did not see it during the night."

"Right. It would be the same with people who whether see God, the Buddha-nature, the Emptiness, the Cosmic Consciousness or not."

"Thank you for answering my questions, sir."

"Thank you for asking the questions, Venerable Sir." <<<


Maybe it's just me, but what does seeing a psychic really do to us. Who do you know who has been really damaged by the experience. Upset? Yes. Angry? Yes. But just about anything in our lives can do that.

[tolman]

It certainly looks like the belief in other people's claims of psychic abilities can be an easy way for vulnerable people to be financially or emotionally exploited by evident frauds, or by people with a false belief in their own abilities.

Conversely, the presence of people who want to believe could also encourage people to maintain or expand delusions of their own abilities, rather than facing up to reality at an earlier stage.
If there is some eventual crunch, it could be all the harder if someone realises they've been deceiving themselves and other people for some time, and once someone has invested time and reputation in the idea they are psychic, as more than just a tongue-in-cheek thing, it could be rather difficult to back out from.

[Zaira]

tolman,

Thanks for the reply.

On a forum recently, where I answered posts and encouraged people to be more positive, I had it pointed out to me that I was in a way putting them down and saying that their life looked like crap! It never occurred to me that anyone would think that. I feel quite hesitant now to give my advice and encouragement. Was I wrong to try to help others to see what I saw to be true?

I agree that people can be fooled by psychics and that it is unfortunate. Where I have a problem though is that people can be fooled by a whole lot of different types of fraud. Skeptics can't protect them all. And even if they could, should they? Are people going to stop falling for fraudulent claims because UKS tells them the person is a fraud? When we get right down to it, don't people have the right to make their own mistakes and learn from them?

That's what made me wonder if anyone had ever been really damaged by the claims of a psychic. Or really helped by the claims of the Skeptic. Again, when we get right down to it, people can be hurt or damaged by a lot worse things than a psychic claiming to know the future and charging money for the information.

I feel more concerned about the message Skeptics are sending people...

I'm concerned that in the end it is the Skeptics that people will be avoiding!

[Araneus]

And even if they could, should they? Are people going to stop falling for fraudulent claims because UKS tells them the person is a fraud? When we get right down to it, don't people have the right to make their own mistakes and learn from them?

Was I wrong to try to help others to see what I saw to be true?

You've more or less answered your own question there.

Promoting skepticism is about giving people the intellectual tools required to make rational decisions for themselves. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to make their own choices, and as you say, learn from their mistakes, but with access to real information (rather than the superstitious magical thinking which is prevalent in human society) they stand a better chance of making a choice which benefits them in the long run.

[tolman]

I think one of the great problems is the 'sanctuary' aspect of psychic claims, the ability to disclaim responsibility.

People can pester the relatives of deceased people, or throw reams of predictions at the police, and if/when wrong, can just pass it off as a vision being uncertain, as if any negative outcome wasn't really their fault (assuming they even accept they did say inaccurate things, rather than pretending they were always right).

Now, one could look at some religions in a similar light, if someone was presenting what they had decided for themselves as What God Wants, but at least in responsible religions, there is likely to be some aspect of pastoral care, and maybe attempts to moderate both clergy and laity who seem to be taking things a bit too seriously.
With psychics seemingly being independent self-believers, there may not be any real control mechanisms, and someone is either scamming or going off the rails, there's no-one to stop them.

That's not even mentioning the sickening hypocrisy of the fraction who prey on people's vulnerabilities but who would retreat to the shelter of claiming to be an entertainer if they started being looked at too seriously.

Now, there could certainly be people who could do some good - for example, someone who, faced in private with a believer unlikely to be dissuaded, passed on a message from the 'other side' that their loved one was moving out of reach, but wanted the survivor to get on and live their life to the full rather than mourning too much or wasting their future time in session after session.

If someone was effectively giving good counsel (and not charging for it), that could be a positive thing, in the same way as good advice from a pastor could be, but someone like that might have to be someone whose focus was really on other people.
Someone who seemed to be focussed mainly on themselves and their gifts might be somewhat less likely to be of use.

[The Great Bymble]

On a forum recently, where I answered posts and encouraged people to be more positive, I had it pointed out to me that I was in a way putting them down and saying that their life looked like crap! It never occurred to me that anyone would think that. I feel quite hesitant now to give my advice and encouragement. Was I wrong to try to help others to see what I saw to be true?

I agree that people can be fooled by psychics and that it is unfortunate. Where I have a problem though is that people can be fooled by a whole lot of different types of fraud. Skeptics can't protect them all. And even if they could, should they? Are people going to stop falling for fraudulent claims because UKS tells them the person is a fraud? When we get right down to it, don't people have the right to make their own mistakes and learn from them?

That's what made me wonder if anyone had ever been really damaged by the claims of a psychic. Or really helped by the claims of the Skeptic. Again, when we get right down to it, people can be hurt or damaged by a lot worse things than a psychic claiming to know the future and charging money for the information.

I feel more concerned about the message Skeptics are sending people...

I'm concerned that in the end it is the Skeptics that people will be avoiding!

Zaira
Here's a site that's raises some similar points
http://www.aura-soma.net/index.asp?Q...ID=1&ST=&LID=1
Aren'tpsychics continually telling people that their lives are crap and need improvement?IMHO anyone who has set themselves up as a mediator between supernatural forces and humanity has a vested interest in maintaining an asymmetrical relationship between themselves and those they purport to help,whether for money,kudos or self-esteem.That isn't about helping people find valid personal answers,merely feeding them particular information intended to keep them on the hook for as long as possible by maintaining a certain mindset.

[Ardbeg]

I remember one time I went to church...it was the first time I went since I had read about it in the papers the previous day. I had just got over a very difficult time in my life and was slowly making progress and doing well for myself. On that particular day, there was a special 'healer' at the church. I didnt know this when I went because the papers hadnt mentioned anything about it. I remember that everyone was praying and suddenly, he pointed to me and said - "the lady in the brown top...I have a message for you. God is standing right by your side and wants you to know that the difficult phase of your life is now over. You've been through sooo much but you've come out of it stronger and it will all be okay now. He will always walk by your side".

I honestly dont care if there's evidence for God or for psychics or healers. On that day, in that instance, that man helped me and made me feel better. Its been a few years since this incident and I still feel comforted thinking about it. Is this a delusion? I dont know...maybe it is...or maybe it isnt. I know it helped me. And that's all that matters to me. Another person is free to view this incident as complete and utter trash and I dont have a problem with it.

I have said elsewhere that I have done my share of paying out good money to psychics who have been useless. I wont do that again if I can help it. I would dissuade others from doing it. But like zaira said, we all have the right to make our own mistakes.

[Zaira]

tolman,

"I think one of the great problems is the 'sanctuary' aspect of psychic claims, the ability to disclaim responsibility."

See, this bothers me because I believe people have the right to do what they want with their own life so long as they don't deliberately hurt themselves or anyone else on the process. This means taking responsibility for one's own words and actions. Something I have yet to read that even one psychic did. They all have these long winded excuses for why it didn't turn out like they said it would. They are never wrong. We misunderstood!

[tolman]

Further, when running away from responsibility, they don't seem to mind if they cast aspersions on others, accusing people of quoting them out of context, (effectively accusing other people of either ignorance or deceit), or claiming people are bullies, or maybe jealous of their talent (after seeing the badpsychics clip of Jimmy Carr having a go at Acorah, the phrase 'jealous of my talent' will have a definite ring to it).

Sometimes the accusations are just vague enough that they can't be precisely shown to be against any particular person, but that can just appear like calculating cowardice, since it makes it harder for someone to request clarification and apology.

[tolman]

I honestly dont care if there's evidence for God or for psychics or healers. On that day, in that instance, that man helped me and made me feel better. Its been a few years since this incident and I still feel comforted thinking about it. Is this a delusion? I dont know...maybe it is...or maybe it isnt. I know it helped me. And that's all that matters to me. Another person is free to view this incident as complete and utter trash and I dont have a problem with it.

I'd have a lot more respect for a healer/psychic/whatever who said: "Here's some free advice. You have the power to move on, and it's OK to move on. You don't need me any more. Goodbye" than one who was happy to have repeat customers.
Thing is, someone wouldn't need any actual powers to do that, apart from the power to be convincing.

[Zaira]

The Great Bymble,

"Aren't psychics continually telling people that their lives are crap and need improvement?"

Good point.

I was a little more concerned about myself trying to help on a forum and Skeptics try to share their information because we, hopefully, have more integrity. And I therefore thought there was nothing wrong with us all questioning our motives occasionally.

"That isn't about helping people find valid personal answers, merely feeding them particular information intended to keep them on the hook for as long as possible by maintaining a certain mindset."

Another good point. Thanks that helps a lot with my personal little dilemma of giving advice.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out later.

[The Great Bymble]

I honestly dont care if there's evidence for God or for psychics or healers. On that day, in that instance, that man helped me and made me feel better. Its been a few years since this incident and I still feel comforted thinking about it. Is this a delusion? I dont know...maybe it is...or maybe it isnt. I know it helped me. And that's all that matters to me. Another person is free to view this incident as complete and utter trash and I dont have a problem with it.

I have said elsewhere that I have done my share of paying out good money to psychics who have been useless. I wont do that again if I can help it. I would dissuade others from doing it. But like zaira said, we all have the right to make our own mistakes.

Ardbeg
As seems the case with many members of this forum,I've had a fair bit to do with the world of woo and I still haven't found plausible explanations for some of the things which I personally experienced,variously positive and negative in their effects on both myself and others.
I still can't fathom out why many of those who present themselves as being on a 'higher spiritual plane' than us lesser mortals exhibit some truly negative behaviour when offstage,and don't expect it to be noticed,or simply don't care if it is.

[Admin]

When we get right down to it, don't people have the right to make their own mistakes and learn from them?

Why not be a little smarter and learn from other people's mistakes?

Of course people can do what they want; but in life, if you daft things you suffer the consequences and if you do smart things then you reap the rewards.

The point is, we don't have to learn by trial and error (making your own mistakes). There's very little that's new under the sun and learning from what's gone before means we can learn without making (as many) mistakes.

[Zaira]

Ardbeg,

"I honestly don’t care if there's evidence for God or for psychics or healers. On that day, in that instance, that man helped me and made me feel better. Its been a few years since this incident and I still feel comforted thinking about it. Is this a delusion? I don’t know...maybe it is...or maybe it isn’t. I know it helped me. And that's all that matters to me. Another person is free to view this incident as complete and utter trash and I don’t have a problem with it."

I have visited with psychics. On one visit I was in pain and decided to cut the visit short. I made my apologies and told her I wasn't feeling well and had to leave. I was on my way out when she put her hand on my back and told me the pain would soon be gone. The pain, I had suffered with on and off for over six months, was gone when I got up the next day. My sister had been with me when I cut the visit short. She saw me a few days later and commented on how much better I looked, and I told her that I felt great. The pain has never returned. The psychic’s name was Julia and she wouldn't accept payment because the session had been cut short. Like you, I have never been able to forget her. Tried to see her a few months later and she had moved away.

Like you, I don't know what happened but I'm glad it did.

I went the odd time after that to different psychics but nothing useful ever came of it.

And, like you, I won't do it again. And I too would try to talk anyone out of going to a psychic.

[Admin]

I honestly dont care if there's evidence for God or for psychics or healers. On that day, in that instance, that man helped me and made me feel better. Its been a few years since this incident and I still feel comforted thinking about it. Is this a delusion?

Well I doubt whether God was really standing next to you!

I know what you're saying though, it was a positive, uplifting experience and whether it was real or not doesn't really matter: it's the result that's important.

It's a compelling argument for this sort of thing - as long as you only look at the positive outcomes, of course.

What if he'd told you that it was Satan standing next to you? ???

You may not have such a strong belief in this sort of thing that you'd have taken something like that seriously, but some people do.

I came across a case up here where a man had lost his wife and went to a medium who told him that she could see dark spirits around him and that he was in for a time of trouble - the medium was a crackpot, not a scammer btw. Anyway, this man was a believer and this piece of 'psychic info' tipped him over the edge and into a mental breakdown.

Now I'm sure that most psychics, whether they believe they're genuine or just providing a service, would never come out with something like that, but the more belief people have in these things, the more open and vulnerable they are to being psychologically harmed in the cases where this sort of thing does happen.

Remember, a lot of people who believe they are psychic may have mental health problems themselves!!

It's not always harmless.