So what frequency is a spirit?

[chillzero]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...838480,00.html

In the Pisa experiments, Gagliardo, working with Martin Wild of the University of Auckland , followed up experiments done in 2004, which showed that pigeons could detect magnetic fields. She argued that this did not mean they actually did.
So in 24 young homing pigeons she cut the nerves that carried olfactory signals to their brains. In another 24 pigeons she cut the trigeminal nerve, which is linked to the part of the brain involved in detecting magnetic fields. The 48 birds were released 30 miles from their loft. All but one of those deprived of their ability to detect magnetic fields were home within 24 hours, indicating that it was not an ability that helped them to navigate. But those who had been deprived of their sense of smell fluttered all over the skies of northern Italy. Only four made it home.

[Admin]

Children! Stop the fighting!

Please refrain from referring to other posters as children. Insulting comments help no-one.

Here. Check this out.

And don't shoot the messenger! http://www.peterussell.com/SP/PsychicEnergy.php

Well this is interesting:

In physics, energy has a clear mathematical definition, and can be precisely quantified in established units. Psychic energy, on the other hand, has no formal definition, and cannot be measured in the same precise way. On the contrary, it is detected and assessed personally. It is a felt experience. And the nature and intensity are subjective evaluations rather than objective measurements.

That's tantamount to saying that psychic energy isn't actually real - it's simply metaphorical and it subjectively means whatever you want it to mean.

So when believers talk about "energies", "frequencies", "vibrations" etc., they're not using them in their scientific sense; they're hijacking scientific terms and using them as metaphors to make their belief system sound a little more valid.

Sounds about right.

[MRT]

I could never be a biologist - such nasty experiments they have to do!

Anyway, back to the thread. I read that interesting link, the basic thrust of which was that 'psychic energy' was essentially a subjective experience that cannot be measured. I'm not sure all psychics would agree with that. However, let's move on.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that spirits are undetectable by scientific instruments, whatever their frequency. They can still, however, communicate with living people (insert 'allegedly' anywhere you like here, I can't be bothered).

So, if thoughts appear in someone's mind from a spirit, that is a definite change to our physical universe. Indeed, more generally, if you think that paranormal experiences originate with something unmeasurable, they nevertheless have measurable effects on the real world. These changes CAN be measured. This is why I reject the argument that science cannot measure the paranormal. At some point there is an interface to the real world - when that happens we can measure it. If these measurements reveal nothing out of the ordinary (normal cause and effect) then we can probably assume there is only a subjective paranormal effect. If, on the other hand, we get effect without cause, it might imply psychic energy.

Anyway, in the current scenario, talking about the frequency of a spirit makes perfect sense. The spirit must produce a physical effect, triggering specific synapses in a particular order and timing to produce a thought that is not simply memory retrieval. So, is there any way to differentiate between 'psychic derived thoughts' and ordinary thoughts and, in particular, various normal brain states where thoughts or memories might appear spontaneously as if from an external source.

[Zaira]

Farside,

"I've had a read. I still wouldn't say I am any closer to understanding psychic energy though. It sounds like a 'feeling' rather than anything else. If that feeling of warmth or whatever is empirical then it should be possible to measure. e.g. increase in heat being radiated from the body. If that feeling is just in the mind - then that probably tells me all I need to know about psychic energy."

I have read it a few times and it is the closest I have come to it being described. Please don't dismiss it just because you have never experienced it. I can feel pretty uncomfortable in a room full of people because this 'energy reading' occasionally overwhelms me. It's like having everyone in the room talking to you at the same time - you can't make sense of what you are getting. It's easier in a room with half a dozen or so people but, even then, the 'energy' from just one person can make you want to leave the room.

Have you ever experienced anything like that even in a physical sense? There is just a chance that we experience the same thing but refer to it differently.

[Zaira]

"Please refrain from referring to other posters as children. Insulting comments help no-one."

It was a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tin Lizzie]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...838480,00.html

The Following is from http://www.sciencedaily.com based on a 2004 study at The University of North Carolina

"This is a fascinating study in which Cordula managed to train homing pigeons to respond to magnetic fields," said Dr. Kenneth J. Lohmann, Hoggard Distinguished professor of biology at UNC. "It is important news in biology because more than a dozen attempts by others to do this over the years have all failed. Cordula is the first to find a way to make it work."
In the experiments, if the pigeons chose correctly between two platforms located in a tunnel-like chamber, they were rewarded with food, Mora said. Under normal conditions, they would climb onto either of the two platforms randomly in their search for something to eat. But when a magnetic field was present -- induced by coils above and below their chamber -- the birds could be conditioned to climb the correct platform up to 75 percent of the time, which is significantly more often than they would by chance alone.
Once the pigeons were trained to respond to magnetic field stimuli, Mora learned more about the animals' magnetic sense, such as where their likely magnetic receptors are located, Lohmann said.
One set of experiments showed that a small but strong magnet attached to the top of the pigeons' beaks prevented them from going to the correct platform more than half the time. A small, non-magnetic brass weight similarly attached had no such effect, Mora said. Other experiments showed that both local anesthesia in the upper beak area and severing the ophthalmic branch of the trigeminal nerve impaired the birds' ability to detect magnetic fields, while cutting the olfactory nerve, which transfers information about smells, did not.

[Tin Lizzie]

[quote=John Jackson;19371]

In physics, energy has a clear mathematical definition, and can be precisely quantified in established units. Psychic energy, on the other hand, has no formal definition, and cannot be measured in the same precise way. On the contrary, it is detected and assessed personally. It is a felt experience. And the nature and intensity are subjective evaluations rather than objective measurements.

That's tantamount to saying that psychic energy isn't actually real - it's simply metaphorical and it subjectively means whatever you want it to mean.
[quote]

Perhaps also it indicates that the 'ability' is only present in certain people, just as some people are more athletically talented than others.

So when believers talk about "energies", "frequencies", "vibrations" etc., they're not using them in their scientific sense; they're hijacking scientific terms and using them as metaphors to make their belief system sound a little more valid.

Given that spirit exists there must be a scientific explanation - even if we aren't aware of the means yet. I would still like to see this test which will address what I have suggested earlier.

[Cuddles]

The Following is from http://www.sciencedaily.com based on a 2004 study at The University of North Carolina

Basically, some animals can probably use magnetic fields as a compass, and nothing more. It can help point you in the right direction, but doesn't actually tell you where you are. Give someone a compass and a map and they can find their way. Take away either the compass or the map and they will be screwed. Birds, and probably other animals, can almost certainly use the Earth's magnetic field as a compass, but their "magnetic sense" is far from the universal navigational tool it was first thought to be.

In any case, as Chill said, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with ley lines. Ley lines have never been thought to be the Earth's magnetic field, which is close enough to constant over the whole surface of the Earth. Ley lines are supposed to be concentrated lines of "energy" running through the Earth, which bear no relation to anything that actually exists. Dowers and various other woos still make silly claims about ley lines, and their claims have nothing in common with either the Earth's, or any other, magnetic fields.

[Tin Lizzie]

I could never be a biologist - such nasty experiments they have to do!

Anyway, back to the thread. I read that interesting link, the basic thrust of which was that 'psychic energy' was essentially a subjective experience that cannot be measured. I'm not sure all psychics would agree with that. However, let's move on.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that spirits are undetectable by scientific instruments, whatever their frequency. They can still, however, communicate with living people (insert 'allegedly' anywhere you like here, I can't be bothered).

So, if thoughts appear in someone's mind from a spirit, that is a definite change to our physical universe. Indeed, more generally, if you think that paranormal experiences originate with something unmeasurable, they nevertheless have measurable effects on the real world. These changes CAN be measured. This is why I reject the argument that science cannot measure the paranormal. At some point there is an interface to the real world - when that happens we can measure it. If these measurements reveal nothing out of the ordinary (normal cause and effect) then we can probably assume there is only a subjective paranormal effect. If, on the other hand, we get effect without cause, it might imply psychic energy.

Anyway, in the current scenario, talking about the frequency of a spirit makes perfect sense. The spirit must produce a physical effect, triggering specific synapses in a particular order and timing to produce a thought that is not simply memory retrieval. So, is there any way to differentiate between 'psychic derived thoughts' and ordinary thoughts and, in particular, various normal brain states where thoughts or memories might appear spontaneously as if from an external source.

I am wondering if this is possibly the same mechanism buy which telepathy between the living might occur.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Farside,

"I've had a read. I still wouldn't say I am any closer to understanding psychic energy though. It sounds like a 'feeling' rather than anything else. If that feeling of warmth or whatever is empirical then it should be possible to measure. e.g. increase in heat being radiated from the body. If that feeling is just in the mind - then that probably tells me all I need to know about psychic energy."

I have read it a few times and it is the closest I have come to it being described. Please don't dismiss it just because you have never experienced it. I can feel pretty uncomfortable in a room full of people because this 'energy reading' occasionally overwhelms me. It's like having everyone in the room talking to you at the same time - you can't make sense of what you are getting. It's easier in a room with half a dozen or so people but, even then, the 'energy' from just one person can make you want to leave the room.

Have you ever experienced anything like that even in a physical sense? There is just a chance that we experience the same thing but refer to it differently.

I have been in situations where I've really not wanted to be there. And because you don't want to be there, you feel on edge. Also, sometimes if I'm really tired or am stressed, I don't enjoy being in situations as much as if I was feeling ok.

I can remember times when I've left bars or nights out because I've been feeling a bit down or stressed. You can work yourself up into a state sometimes, if you let your brain go into overdrive - your body is knackered but your brain keeps on going.

I work in a large office, so I'm quite often faced with situations where I might be in a room with someone I really don't like

You are correct that it is hard to put your finger on exactly why you don't like someone or a situation, but thats just a part of how the mind/brain/body works. I don't think ther eis anything paranormal about it.

This psychic energy idea, I wonder if anyone ever considers physiological explanations such as adrenalin and endorphines. And a less scientific term, but something everyone feels - 'butterflies' in the stomach.

If you are sitting in the audience at a large show and you think the spotlight is going to be on you, there is a large adrenalin rush. Plus if you are with a medium and you are taken by surprise by something you weren't expecting, you probably get an adrenalin rush.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Given that spirit exists there must be a scientific explanation - even if we aren't aware of the means yet. I would still like to see this test which will address what I have suggested earlier.

This is an assumption too far.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I am wondering if this is possibly the same mechanism buy which telepathy between the living might occur.

Again, take a step back. We don't have any proof that telepathy is a real effect.

[Tin Lizzie]

Again, take a step back. We don't have any proof that telepathy is a real effect.

Of course we have no proof, but there are indications that it is possible. I have a feeling that we may kill two birds with one stone.

[Zaira]

This isn't very nice, but nevertheless. My mum had to go into elderly accommodation and couldn't take her dog with her so we took it. It was not a very well trained dog. While in the garden it attacked and killed a pet rabbit belonging to one of my young children. We were all very upset and there was a lot going on at the time. I couldn't find anyone to take the dog so I drove a couple of towns away and left the dog where I hoped it could be found and cared for by someone else. The afternoon of the next day the dog turned up at the door! How? Why? My mother lives in Scotland and we live down south, we hadn't had the dog a week!! Why did it make it's way back to us? And how did it do it? We found it a good home by the way.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This isn't very nice, but nevertheless. My mum had to go into elderly accommodation and couldn't take her dog with her so we took it. It was not a very well trained dog. While in the garden it attacked and killed a pet rabbit belonging to one of my young children. We were all very upset and there was a lot going on at the time. I couldn't find anyone to take the dog so I drove a couple of towns away and left the dog where I hoped it could be found and cared for by someone else. The afternoon of the next day the dog turned up at the door! How? Why? My mother lives in Scotland and we live down south, we hadn't had the dog a week!! Why did it make it's way back to us? And how did it do it? We found it a good home by the way.

I don't know, but we still have so much to learn from animal behaviour.

If I was speculating, I'd say it got a scent. Maybe it got lucky and headed in the correct direction first, and then caught a scent. But really, I couldn't say.

You could ask this lady though.

http://www1.yourbeautifulmind.com/petpsychic.htm