How does one talk to the emotionally involved about CAM, and should one even try?

[DrS]

I ran into a problem recently when talking about alternative medicine with someone. Unfortunately, I was unaware that the person's sister has cancer, and the doctors have said there is nothing more they can do. This sister is 35 years old, with two small children. The person I was talking to is a passionate advocate of CAM, hence our conversation in the first place, and she said that she had only now managed to get her sister to try alternatives because she had previously put all her faith in conventional medicine ... which "as expected" had let her down. She ended up getting very angry because she said I was attacking all her hope and she had to cling on to her belief that her preferred treatments would work for her sister as they had always worked for her.

In this particular situation, it seems to me that the only thing to do is withdraw from the conversation, which I did. But how shouold one deal with such situations? Is there any way of putting one's argument across when faced with an emotional storm?

Mods, I'm sure there was a thread on this sort of issue, but I can't find it at the moment. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.

[bindeweede]

I ran into a problem recently when talking about alternative medicine with someone. Unfortunately, I was unaware that the person's sister has cancer, and the doctors have said there is nothing more they can do. This sister is 35 years old, with two small children. The person I was talking to is a passionate advocate of CAM, hence our conversation in the first place, and she said that she had only now managed to get her sister to try alternatives because she had previously put all her faith in conventional medicine ... which "as expected" had let her down. She ended up getting very angry because she said I was attacking all her hope and she had to cling on to her belief that her preferred treatments would work for her sister as they had always worked for her.

In this particular situation, it seems to me that the only thing to do is withdraw from the conversation, which I did. But how shouold one deal with such situations? Is there any way of putting one's argument across when faced with an emotional storm?

Mods, I'm sure there was a thread on this sort of issue, but I can't find it at the moment. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.

DrS,

Would it be this one?

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1859

[DrS]

Yes, thankyou bindeweede! I'm more than happy if you feel it is better to merge my question with it.

I'm finding I have upset someone and feel upset myself at that, and at the fact that I can no longer discuss something that I was interested in, but it doesn't deserve a thread of its own!

[bindeweede]

Yes, thankyou bindeweede! I'm more than happy if you feel it is better to merge my question with it.

I'm finding I have upset someone and feel upset myself at that, and at the fact that I can no longer discuss something that I was interested in, but it doesn't deserve a thread of its own!

DrS

Some might disagree, but I feel your new CAM thread is fine here. The other thread was about Psychics, although the issue you raise is the same.

I'd be surprised if other people have not found themselves in your position.

[DrS]

Thanks bindeweede. I'd really appreciate others' opinions on this because I'm now in a situation where conversation is stifled. Another member of the group has said that respect for opinions has to go both ways, and clearly my opinion isn't being respected, but I don't see how to proceed without looking completely heartless.

[Matt]

Well firstly I think withdrawing from the conversation at the time was the right move. You stepped into an emotional minefield. Logic and reason don't apply here.

It's important not to appear to be attacking the source of their hope. Not because it doesn't deserve to be attacked for exploiting false hope but because it won't get you anywhere.

A few thoughts.

The C stands for complementary, at the very least conventional medicine can provide palliative care. Emphasise that her sister can use both. It seems like your friend has a particularly sour view of modern medicine. Emphasize its sucesses, eradication of smallpox and near eradication of childhood diseases. The germ theroy of disease alone and its implications to modern hygene standards is repsonsible for a large part of the radical leap in life expectancies over the last century. If you can, give personal examples, a century ago my fiance's ectopic pregnacy would likely have killed her.

Also, you can point out that you don't believe that all complementary practicioners are frauds. Natropathic remedies can indeed be effective - after all what all that medical marijuana fuss about if not a banned natropathic remedy. Alternative practicioners are also far less put upon than the modern NHS staff. They can spend more time building a relationship with their clients. The client who trusts their practicioner may reveal more about their symptoms allowing for a more thorough diagnoses. SOme alternative practioners do have conventional medical training alongside their alt-med beliefs. Even just the counselling aspect can be useful.

However, and here you have to be very tactful, it's certainly true that in a unregulated field there have been definite cases of charletans preying upon desperate and vulnerable people.

The failsafes that are present in conventional medicine to try to catch such people are simply not present in fields wheer a half day course and a few hundred quid buy you a certificate. Con artists are drawn to the less regualted fields.

Thus you have allowed the possibility for hope whilst introducing the very real concern that her sister may be being exploited.

Here you guide her using concerned non judgmental questions stemming from your desire to understand...

What form of Alternative treatment is she engaging in? Who is the practitioner? What qualifications do they have - are any of them medically recognised qualifications? Wouldn't you rather have massage thereaphy from a State Registered Nurse than a housewife who's read a few books and paid for a certificate. How much is she paying? Why is this not available on the NHS? Have clinical trials been done on this procedure? etc...

I wish you luck.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I personally think you probably should withdraw from that particular conversation. It's a no win situation in my opinion. The only caveat I would add to that is that if they were determined to persue some alternative therapy which would adversely affect the quality of life for the remaining time that person has alive, or would adversely affect the survivors, then I would offer advice.

In the first instance it is comparable to chemotherapy where many people will stop this treatment when there really is nothing further that can be done. What is the point of persuing an alternative treatment which will lead to degradation in the quality of life when there is really nothing that can be done.

Secondly, if they were spending large amounts of money on alternative treatments, I would also consider that worth mentioning. If there is a family being left behind to support, then it is not great that money is being wasted on alternative therapy that isn't going to work.

This is a pretty cold way of looking at things I guess, but life really does go on for those left behind.

[DrS]

Matt, that is so helpful, thankyou very much. For what it's worth, I've cut and pasted below the relevant section of what she said about the treatment she is now getting for her sister. If anyone knows anything about this person or treatment I'd appreciate the info. I've already said (before I realized what an emotional minefield I was in) that this isn't what cancer is, or how it operates ....

alas, she trusted her doc 100%, to cut a long story short, everything has been tried and has not worked................. only now have I managed to convince her to try alternatives but I actually think its too late.

On Thursday she has an appointment with DR ETIENNE CALLEBOUT on Harley Street, very expensive but hopefully he may be able to help.

He works on the process of getting rid of all chemicals from the body as if cancer cannot hold onto anything in the body then it cannot survive............

another lady we tried was ALEXANDRINAS STUBBS and she was pretty wonderful but we have decided to try DR CALLEBOUT as time is now running out.

EDIT> Thanks too, Farside.

[Cuddles]

I have two questions that I think make a big difference. Firstly, is this person actually a close friend or family, or just someone you happened to be having a conversation with? If the former, continuing to argue can easily result in the loss of friendship and probably isn't such a good idea. If that latter, it doesn't matter so much what they end up thinking of you, so you can make more of an effort to argue with them.

Secondly, I notice you say she was annoyed that you were spoiling her hope, not her sister's. My answer to that is quite simply "Screw her". She isn't the one that's ill. How selfish is she if she considers it perfectly OK to defraud her sister just so she can feel a bit better about herself? If she complained about her sister's hope, that would be different, although I am still opposed to lying to people just to make them feel better. No doubt she doesn't see it that way, but she is actually saying that she is willing to hurt someone close to her just so that she can cling to beliefs that she knows are wrong. This type of thinking is disturbingly common among believers in various things, and they rarely see it this way, but if you think through what they actually say, that's what it boils down to. It's much like the "Secret" crap, where people go on about love and light, but when you actually think it through, they're saying that everything bad that happens is entirely your own choice.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Secondly, I notice you say she was annoyed that you were spoiling her hope, not her sister's. My answer to that is quite simply "Screw her". She isn't the one that's ill. How selfish is she if she considers it perfectly OK to defraud her sister just so she can feel a bit better about herself? If she complained about her sister's hope, that would be different, although I am still opposed to lying to people just to make them feel better. No doubt she doesn't see it that way, but she is actually saying that she is willing to hurt someone close to her just so that she can cling to beliefs that she knows are wrong. This type of thinking is disturbingly common among believers in various things, and they rarely see it this way, but if you think through what they actually say, that's what it boils down to. It's much like the "Secret" crap, where people go on about love and light, but when you actually think it through, they're saying that everything bad that happens is entirely your own choice.

One way of looking at this is that the sister who is dying will be dead and her suffering ended at that point. The one who is still living will have a long period of severe suffering and grief. I think it is natural that she is confused about her best intentions. I watched my mother suffer badly when my father died with cancer 10 years ago, it is natural for the surviving close relatives to also go through an enormous amount of pain and try to alleviate their own suffering.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

First result on Google:

http://www.canceractive.com/page.php?n=378

It's quite easy to see why this type of doctor is sought after. You only need to read the last paragrapgh:

If you are looking for a doctor with a fantastic filing system, a team of secretaries who immediately return your calls, who provides neat word-processed prescriptions, then Dr Callebout is not your man. On the other hand, if you are looking for someone with enormous eclectic experience who will treat you as an individual and not a "cancer patient", this unconventional Belgian might be just the ticket.

From second link on Google:

http://www.cancure.org/dr_callebout.htm

Etienne Callebout, M.D. in London, England uses numerous herbs, nutritional supplements, enzymes, and substances uniquely tailed to fight cancer, along with a detoxification regime, an overhaul of the patient's diet, and psychological healing strategies. He alternates protocols so that the malignancy gets hit from different angles at different times. He may use 714X, aloe vera, amygdalin (laetrile), bovine cartilage, dmso, Wobe-Mugos and other enzymes, glandulars, green tea, Iscador, flaxseed oil, Maitake, vaccines, shark cartilage, and other homeopathic and herbal remedies.

The mention of homeopathy in there should be enough to sound the alarm bells.

[DrS]

But it would ring bells that sound extremely familiar and in tune with the beliefs of the person I was talking to. Cuddles, no she's not a friend, but a member, whom I have not met, of another forum. I still don't want to hurt her feelings though, and would have liked to continue the discussion, but the thread in question has now been virtually derailed. The problem is that such a discussion is probably out of place there anyway, given that it's a place-related forum with a distressingly low percentage of members used to rigorous rational discussion ...

Farside, thanks for that information.

[Matt]

Its encouraging to see that he's an MD, i.e. more of a Doctor than Gillain McKeith. It's no guarentee of competant treatment but it increases the odds that he might notice an opportunity of conventional evidence based medicine that the NHS specialist have missed. The web seems to suggest that he's happy to work alongside orthodox medicine so there's hopefully lass chance of him promoting anti scientific counter knowledge - e.g. vacinations are mind control agents.

Diet and Natropathy might well affect cancer without requiring a change in the laws of nature.

Getting rid of all chemicals - all toxins? "Cancer has nothing to hold onto. That's clap trap and we know it." Question is whether it Dr Callebout's claptrap or your friend's missunderstanding of his techniques explained in simple laymans terms.

Questions to ask then. What success have his methods demonstrated, just anecdotes or clinical trials. I see on the web an execise in reducing expectations: Many of his patients come to him as a last resort and he can't do much for them.

Also it looks like he's very expensive. How much does dietrary advice and a coffee enema cost?

Why is he so expensive - why are similar treatments not available on the NHS - even experimentally? Is it because there's no evidence of efficacy?

[Blue Wode]

The C stands for complementary, at the very least conventional medicine can provide palliative care. Emphasise that her sister can use both.

Good advice. The doctors/scientists who wrote to the NHS Trusts back in May 2006 highlighted that point as well:

We are sensitive to the needs of patients for complementary care to enhance well-being and for spiritual support to deal with the fear of death at a time of critical illness, all of which can be supported through services already available within the NHS without resorting to false claims.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-2191985,00.html

[DrS]

Thanks all.

I suppose the main problem is that conventional medicine appears to have come to the end of the road, so there's little point, probably, in suggesting side-be-side treatment. And the alternative treatment is unlikely to cause any irreparable harm given the prognosis anyway, so at least the one-to-one treatment might make her sister feel she's being "cared for". Ultimately, though, I suspect it's the surviving sister who will benefit more from it, but I can already see the argument coming that if her sister had approached this doctor earlier, instead of putting "undue faith" in conventional medicine, she might still be alive ...