Osteopaths on the loose...

[filippo lippi]

Osteopaths are fundamentally not the same as Chiros.

Perhaps you should check this out properly before being so disparaging in your remarks?!

Perhaps you should read the links. I don't know about the British Institute Osteopaths, but the General Osteopathic Council appears to speak for the mainstream of osteopathy and it's endorsed by the Prince of Woo-les. Unless you have some evidence otherwise I'm going to assume that what they peddle is "mainstream."

How do you suppose an osteopath would treat an ear infection? Or learning difficulties? Or Sinus problems? How does an osteopath help someone with cerebral palsy or Down's Syndrome?

Lest we forget, these claims are made here

http://www.osteopathy.org.uk/about_o...s_Children.pdf

At the moment I'm having difficulty differentiating between these claims and those made by Gary Mannion.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Is it possible that there are some osteopaths which don't subscribe to the rubbish you've pointed out? Or am I being really naive (wouldn't be the first time!)

No, you are not being naive at all. As I said in the States DO's are MD's have the same status, however, in the UK they undergo quite intense training over a four year period.

Lots of osteopaths specialise in sports osteopathy and the great thing is that they do soft tissue work which is always needed in cases such as yours. As a Physical Therapist, I predominantly work with soft tissue and I use a lot of osteopathic soft tissue techniques in my practice.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

How do you suppose an osteopath would treat an ear infection? Or learning difficulties? Or Sinus problems? How does an osteopath help someone with cerebral palsy or Down's Syndrome?

Ear and sinus problems can be helped by working on the musculature of the neck, sub-occipital muscles and the muscles that attach around the TMJ. Also the SCM which attaches at the mastoid tip. If muscles are tight in these areas proper drainage can be prevented. Once these muscles are lengthened, these problems can be overcome. However, there are other reasons apart from this that can cause ear and sinus problems which need to be considered.

[filippo lippi]

And cerebral palsy? Down's syndrome? Learning difficulties?

[Blue Wode]

Ear and sinus problems can be helped by working on the musculature of the neck, sub-occipital muscles and the muscles that attach around the TMJ. Also the SCM which attaches at the mastoid tip. If muscles are tight in these areas proper drainage can be prevented. Once these muscles are lengthened, these problems can be overcome. However, there are other reasons apart from this that can cause ear and sinus problems which need to be considered.

Do you have any good evidence to support that claim? Because let’s not forget what Professor Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh had to say very recently on the subject of osteopathy's effectiveness:

OSTEOPATHY


WHAT IS IT?
A manual therapy which focuses on the musculoskeletal system to treat disease. Osteopaths use a range of techniques to mobilise soft tissues, bones and joints. Osteopathy and chiropractic therapy have much in common, but there are also important differences.

Osteopaths tend to use gentler techniques and often employ massage-like treatments. They also place less emphasis on the spine than chiropractors, and they rarely move the vertebral joints beyond their physical range of motion, unlike chiropractors. Therefore osteopathic interventions are less likely to injure.

In general they treat mainly musculoskeletal problems, but many also claim to treat other conditions such as asthma, ear infection and colic.

DOES IT WORK?
There is reasonably good evidence that the osteopathic approach is as effective as conventional treatments for back pain (if, however, you receive no significant benefit then be prepared to switch to physiotherapeutic exercises, which is backed by similar evidence and which is more cost- effective as it is often done in groups).

There is no good evidence to support the use of osteopathy in non-musculoskeletal conditions.

People with severe osteoporosis, bone cancer, infections of the bone or bleeding problems should confirm with the osteopath that they will not receive forceful manual treatments.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=557946&in_page_id=17 74&ICO=HEALTH&ICL=TOPART

[My bold]

For those interested, this topic is also being discussed over at Bad Science at the moment:
http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=86674#86674

For clarification purposes, the following is lifted from a post I made there earlier today about the main differences between osteopathy and chiropractic:

For those not familiar with both practices [chiropractic and osteopathy], the following is a summary of pages 130-135 of the ‘Bad Backs’ chapter of Rose Shapiro’s recently published book, Suckers: How alternative medicine makes fools of us all:

Chiropractors are more likely to manipulate the spine directly; osteopaths may use the limbs as levers and in this way try to mobilise the spine.

Both osteopathy and chiropractic originated in America. They were a development of the medieval folk medicine practice of bone setting.

In America today there are more than 49,000 Doctors of Osteopathy (known as DOs) who are trained in orthodox scientific medicine with additional training in manipulative therapies. They have the same entitlements to prescribe and perform surgery as mainstream medical practitioners and make up 20% of all general practitioners is the US.

The UK’s 5,000 or so osteopaths, require no scientific medical training and so are more firmly established in the ‘alternative’ camp. Very few are MDs and many combine osteopathy with dubious practices such as naturopathy and cranial osteopathy. They are regulated by statute.

In a review of current research that ‘enraged’ osteopaths and chiropractors, Professor Edzard Ernst concluded that here was no evidence to suggest that spinal manipulation was an effective intervention for any condition and that the finding applied to both osteopathy and chiropractic.

Osteopathy and chiropractic were invented, or ‘discovered’ by a pair of determined and charismatic Americans in the late 19th century – Andrew Taylor Still and Daniel David Palmer. They both could be described as chancers and fantasists who had tried and failed to make their fortunes in a variety of jobs and get-rich-quick schemes. They saw themselves as visionaries and spiritual leaders and believed they had discovered a single cause and a single cure for all diseases.

Andrew Still claimed he had been a battlefield surgeon, but no record of it exists. He found phrenology and mesmerism interesting and following the deaths of three of his children he became a magnetic healer. He went on to have a ”prophetic vision” which apparently revealed a truth to him that if bones could be manipulated back into alignment then the nerves would “properly conduct the fluids of life” and so-called diseases or effects would trouble the patient no longer. In the mid 1880s he coined the word ‘osteopathy’ and business was booming.

I don’t think that present-day osteopathy is quite so mired in quackery as chiropractic, however they are quite similar in that both use spinal manipulation – although it’s probably true to say that osteopaths tend to use it less in favour of soft tissue work (which is gentler).

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

And cerebral palsy? Down's syndrome? Learning difficulties?

I don't know about that one. My guess would be probably not!

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Do you have any good evidence to support that claim? Because let’s not forget what Professor Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh had to say very recently on the subject of osteopathy's effectiveness:

Yes, because these techniques are not really osteopathy in general. What I have described are ways of working with and lengthening the soft tissues that do not involve manipulation of any kind that are used by osteopaths yes, but also massage therapists and physical therapists alike.

I believe it was the HVT/LVT that Ernst and Singh were saying had no good evidence and this is not what I am talking about.

[filippo lippi]

Ear and sinus problems can be helped by working on the musculature of the neck, sub-occipital muscles and the muscles that attach around the TMJ. Also the SCM which attaches at the mastoid tip. If muscles are tight in these areas proper drainage can be prevented. Once these muscles are lengthened, these problems can be overcome. However, there are other reasons apart from this that can cause ear and sinus problems which need to be considered.

I've been reading up about glue ear and sinusitis. Apparently, both conditions usually clear up by themselves and standard medical practice is to wait and see. Just the sort of problem the alt-medders love, "it'll probably clear up on its own and in the meantime, KER-CHING!"

[Mongrel]

I believe it was the HVT/LVT that Ernst and Singh were saying had no good evidence and this is not what I am talking about.

But when they combine some useful techniques with bad and then throw in some made up stuff that refutes germ theory why not just go to a state registered Physio?

Cherry picking some proven treatments they use whilst ignoring that whole festering pile of wackiness is a bit short sighted...

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

But when they combine some useful techniques with bad and then throw in some made up stuff that refutes germ theory why not just go to a state registered Physio?

Cherry picking some proven treatments they use whilst ignoring that whole festering pile of wackiness is a bit short sighted...

This is because most osteopaths are actually not like this. I have had problems from time to time and have been to see some of my osteopathic colleagues for treatment and they have done some great soft tissue work using a lot of the techniques that I use in my own practice with great success.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

I've been reading up about glue ear and sinusitis. Apparently, both conditions usually clear up by themselves and standard medical practice is to wait and see. Just the sort of problem the alt-medders love, "it'll probably clear up on its own and in the meantime, KER-CHING!"

The answer to this is that sometimes is does clear by itself, but not always and at times, other interventions are needed. Anyway, regardless of this, if someone came to see me with tight musculature in the areas I have already described, I would work on these areas, to break down adhesions and lengthen the tissue, to create freedom from pain and increased range of motion.

Remember though that I am a Licenced Physical Therapist and not an osteopath.

[filippo lippi]

The answer to this is that sometimes is does clear by itself, but not always and at times, other interventions are needed. Anyway, regardless of this, if someone came to see me with tight musculature in the areas I have already described, I would work on these areas, to break down adhesions and lengthen the tissue, to create freedom from pain and increased range of motion.

Remember though that I am a Licenced Physical Therapist and not an osteopath.

How do you decide whether other interventions are necessary? Is their any evidence that your interventions are more effective than "just wait and it'll probably clear up on it's own?" I am sceptical of your claims, but, as a life-long perrenial rhinitis sufferer I am quite interested in the possibility that there may be a non-pharmaceutical way of bringing relief, especially now the oil-seed rape is flowering.

[Cuddles]

I've been reading up about glue ear and sinusitis. Apparently, both conditions usually clear up by themselves and standard medical practice is to wait and see. Just the sort of problem the alt-medders love, "it'll probably clear up on its own and in the meantime, KER-CHING!"

For glue ear and other ear infections it depends on the position of the infection. If it's only an outer ear infection, then the standard approach would be simply to wait until it goes, although likely combined with ear drops or something else to help clear the wax. For middle ear infections, antibiotics are likely to be needed, usually after waiting a couple of days to make sure it's not just a short lived thing. Inner ear infections can sometimes require more drastic measures due to the risk of permanent hearing damage.

At no point will any real doctor recommend a massage for anything related to your ears.

[filippo lippi]

I thought not, but NT might come up with something; I'm sceptical, but open to the possibility.

With the old PR I used to suffer a lot of sinus infections, at least one a year. The GP never once recommended massage, the anti-hystamines seem to do the trick quite nicely.

[Mongrel]

This is because most osteopaths are actually not like this.

That's as maybe but if that's the case why aren't they willing to clean house to get rid of the 'minority' of quacks?