Reply With QuoteI hope you might find this thread helpful.
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/show...ght=conspiracy
Why the science doesn't officially study the UFOs?
Without a scientific study we have too many fake.
However many interesting elements exist, surely authentic, as those that emerge from photo and video authentic, declassified official documents, historical chronicles, events of the last decades, etc.
For example look at these documents declassified (authentic, some really exceptional ones)
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia.htm
Or look at this Hystorical chronicles (on more pages):
http://www.bibleufo.com/ufos.htm
Or look at these cases:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/ufocaseshome.asp
Something of reality really exists. The science should officially study the UFOs, with any interference.
What do you think about this?
Last edited by mimmo77; 3rd May 2008 at 11:12 PM.
I hope you might find this thread helpful.
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/show...ght=conspiracy
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear
bright, until you hear them speak.
Trouble is mimmo77, how does science actually do a realistic investigation? The scientific method postulates theories than then tests them. I don't quite know how this can be done in respect to the existence of UFOs. The individual claims can be investigated but the evidence is always very sparse. There is simply no evidence for the existence of UFOs but UFologists often use the argument that there is also no evidence for there non-existence either. Trouble is that this is a logical falicy in that there is no way of disproving there is a chocolate teapot in orbit round the Earth, but that does not meant there is one there.
You say "Something of reality really exists" and so I suspect from this that you believe UFOs exist (apologies if I am wrong). Trouble you have is that if UFOs do exist, then this would be extraordinary and extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence.
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so
Louis Pasteur
Of course i belive UFOS exist, for example I 've seen documents declassified (FOIA, authentic) that show as USA knew of UFOOriginally Posted by Bunny
existence already 50-60 years ago. This is the evidence that something of real really exists.
Also, 2000 years of documentated sightings of flying spheres, disks, tringles, cygars, ecc. is really strange.
And some real videos show strage inteligent objects not similar to anything with technology known.
Unfortunately, the presence of incompetent people who study the phenomenon, and of cheaters, has made the UFO issue a real joke.
So, scientists should study UFO phenomena not ufologists, just to show at people, and at us, what is real and what isn't.
Of course as skeptics we can't ignore sono old top secret documents, like the followings:
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia26.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia68.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia60.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia27.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia100.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia16.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia11.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia62.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia105.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia104.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia65.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia104.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia19.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia20.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia24.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia63.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia18.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia52.htm
ecc.
ecc.
I really recommend reading at least these FOIA documents, these are 100% not fakes.
I only read the first four links. The first and fourth were most interesting, making reference to recovered discs.
The first requests access to a recovered disc. What exactly was recovered?
Something of interest here:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...&hl=en#PPA7,M1
It turns out it was a hoax. Some of the parts had "Made in the USA" on them.
The fourth link, to my mind, does not say discs have been recovered but assumes some might be and seeks access accordingly.
The thinking at the time was concerned these sightings may be Soviet aircraft, so the US goverments interest is logical.
Worst signature ever.
The Hoax connection about that document is strange. However, I read that there is a dettailed explanation only of La.case.
The document appears in FBI official documents:
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf
(see page 45 of 69, and page 3 )
"I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the La. case the Army grabbed it & wouldn't let us have it for cursory examination".
And there are some references on others FBI official documents, for example I have found this:
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo2.pdf
where I read that the disk recovered in La. case is "sixteen inches in diameter" (see page 4 of 79)
Also, I find the document FOIA where the Army agrees to cooperate with the FBI and allow agents access to examine "recovered discs":
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia27.htm
So the La. case may be explaned by hoax but the (main) disk recovered?
The story of disk recovered doesn't seem a hoax in my opinion
Last edited by mimmo77; 4th May 2008 at 11:15 PM.
wrong post
I have a few questions.
1. How have the documents been verified?
2. Given that the documents are genuine, how have the recovered disks been verified?
3. Given that the disks are 'genuine', how do we know they are extra-terrestrial in origin?
I'm not overtly interested in the UFO scene as the vast majority of 'sightings' have a pretty terrestrial explanation, but I do hold a fascination with what life on other planets might be like.
1. Yes
2. We don't know, UFO documents aren't declassified o they are declassified in illegible mode see the last document for example. That documents appears declassified with no big black cancellations for error
3. We don't know, we just have the official informations in that documents, if you not belive in statements of some ex-military/ministers. Some informations in the middle and last documents posted give you an idea of what really were that UFOS (I do not want to force your interpretation).
1. I asked how not if. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
2. So, is that a no?
3. So the origin isn't known.
As we are dealing with a lot of unknowns, why do you personally think they are from another planet? What evidence has convinced you?
Well, the first step is to ascertain in skeptics way that UFO exists, and to study the reliable information on them.
Now I will show all this to you.
UFO's certainly exist. Any 'Flying Object' that can not be identified is an Unidentified Flying Object. From the admittedly limited knowledge I have of the area, there are very few unexplained 'UFO' sitings.
That does not mean that those that have not been explained are alien space craft.
Why do you think they are alien in origin?
I just want to die: I have done a long full response to show my evidences, but I inadvertently hit the back button and....I lost everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I lost one hours of work!!!!!
In short, the elements present in declassified documents show the presence of vehicles which are not declared vehicles known.
The military and scientists say that vehicles are different from anything known, that have outstanding performance, that are real and hold in high regard.
Photos and videos authentic, even from official souces, confirmed everything.
Military, scientists, astronauts, politicians and pilots speak clearly of alien vehicles in official statements.
Vehicles unknown sighted today are the same people who were sighted in recent millennia, as we read in historical chronicles.
We can not deny the obvious intention not to disclose information to the public on this issue.
The ufologists are unable to deal with the issue because often mix real facts with fake facts, they mix things proven with things not proven.
Moreover, the skeptical studies of arguments seem only to ridicule the matter.
I just have researched only things proven and I found a large amount of material.
mimmo77, I think you have things the wrong way round. There are all sorts of phenomenon that cannot be explained but that does not mean they defy explanation. You "believe" that there are visitor's from another world but others explain things in terms of ghosts, time travel, other dimensions and a long list of other claims. The fact is that there no more evidence to support one from the other. This is the trouble with belief, just because you believe it, does not make it so. The evidence you have produced is the same as that which has been presented over many years and I am afraid it just does not stack up. If you want science to seriously investigate, then let science take one of the so called alien artefacts and analyse it in the full spot light of the scientific community. An off world isotope ratio, for example, would be real contributing evidence. In the absence of such evidence, then I remain sceptical.
You also seem to be bordering on conspiracy cover up theory. If you do believe that (and again my apologies if I have this wrong) then you are in the territory of the lack of evidence is evidence itself and that is a serous logical fallacy.
There may be some instances that cannot be explained but it is one hell of an extrapolation to say that these are therefore visitors from another planet. I suggest you have your belief and now you are searching for the evidence to support it. As I said at the start, you have it the wrong way round.
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so
Louis Pasteur
I just want that the science seriously study the UFO phenomena and
not playing to discredit the phenomena.
For example, look at all this:
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia26.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia68.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia60.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia27.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia100.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia16.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia11.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia62.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia105.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia104.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia65.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia19.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia20.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia24.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia63.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia18.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia52.htm
The ufologists even don't want to speak about these FOIA documents, they want to talk about greys and cospirations, also of fake majestic documents of course. I think that only few ufologists in the world know these real FOIA documents.
Of course, if you read some of them you'll read that military and scientist say in secret documents that UFO vehicles are different from anything known, that have outstanding performance, that are real and hold in high regard.
And what they say to us? That UFO vehicles aren't real, that are aircraft, ecc.
Can you rationally taste a cover up?
we read in official documents:
"The opinion of the officials at the Security Division, AEC, Oak Ridge; Security Branch, NEPA division, Oak Ridge; AEC Security Patrol, Oak Ridge; FBI, Knoxville; Air Force Radar and Fighter Squadron, Knoxville; and the OSI, Knoxville, Tennessee, fail to evolve an adequate explanation fir SUBJECT, however, the possibilities of practical jokes, mass hysteria, balloons of any description, flights of birds (with or without cobwebs or other objects attached), falling leaves, insect swarms, peculiar weather conditions, reflections, flying kites, object thrown from the ground, windblown objects, insanity, and many other natural happenings have been rejected because of the reliability of the witnesses; because of the detailed, similar description of the objects seen by different persons; and because of impossibility."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia105.htm
"At this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention. The details of some of these incidents have been discussed by AD/SI (SI: Scientific Intelligence) with DDCI Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomenon of known types of aerial vehicles."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia65.htm
"Since 30 July 1950 objects, round in form, have been sighted over the Hanford AEC Plant," the first vital nuclear material production unit in the US. "Air Force jets attempted interception with negative results..."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia11.htm
"It is felt that these incidents are of such importance, especially as they are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive installations, that a scientific board be sent to this locality to study the situation with a view to arriving at a solution of this extraordinary phenomena..."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia16.htm
the urgency of action as UFOs are flying over the most sensitive military research installations.
"At this time, the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention. The details of some of these incidents have been discussed by AD/SI with DDCI. Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia104.htm
The subject here is a "storm" of unknown flying objects observed over southern New Mexico and El Paso, Texas. The memo notes that "none of the occurrences could be attributed to fire, rockets, guided missiles or other military activities."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia24.htm
they aknowledge that there are radar/visual sightings "from time to time," but this one lasted 49 minutes.
Also, the pilot and the ground radar operator communicated in real time what the manoeuvers of the objects were and the concordance is established "exactly."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia63.htm
This is a capital case, aknowleged by a US intelligence agency, where a UFO encountered an aircraft, and reacted in a superior ant intelligent manner to the aircraft's interception attempt by shutting down temporarily the aircraft's weapons system. The DIA evaluation termed this "An outstanding report. This case is a classic which meets all the criteria necessary for a valid study of the UFO phenomenon." The analysis called the UFO performance "awesome," noting that the objects displayed "an inordinate amount of maneuverability."
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia18.htm
the Strategic Air Command to the director of the FBI to summarize what was said at a meeting between Army and Air intelligence officers and FBI members during discussions on the necessity to maintain the secrecy about UFO overflights of sensitive installations.
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia100.htm
the US Air Force has no aircraft projects that matches the characteristics of the reported flying disks.
http://ufologie.net/htm/foia60.htm
At this point:if they are real, if the aren't vehicles known, if they aren't natual phenomena, what are the UFOS? From Where?
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