Lightning Process??!!!

[brodski]

To be fair, I don't think that people are saying that ME/CFS is imaginary or self-inflicted; merely that in some cases it could be mimicked by the unscrupulous due to the fact it's difficult to diagnose (there's no definitive test I believe).

I have pointed out in this thread, and elsewhere on these boards, that psychosomatic illness is as real as organic illness. The symptoms, the pain, the misery are just as real for both types of illness.

If ME is indeed a wholly psychosomatic disorder then it really needs to be recognised as such. The problem with psychosomatic illnesses however, is that those who suffer from them utterly reject the idea that it could be psychosomatic.

So apologies if it looked like ME was being dismissed as 'all in the mind' and there's 'nothing really wrong with you' but that's not what was intended.

Sorry, I did fly off the handle a little, on reflection I do see what many of you are trying to say, and i actually agree with most, but the early comments in this thread seemed too typical of the prejudice and stigma this disease often generates.
I understand only too well the problems of getting those with ME/CFS to acknowledge that it may be psychosomatic, the problem is too many people associate that with a disease not being "real".
I reject the idea that there are lots of people faking me/cfs in order to get benefits, as it is much, much easier to fake conditions such as depression, which will generally get you less scrutiny by the DWP, and is much easier to get a diagnosis for.
Part of the reason some posts hacked me off is that so many people with CFS are targeted by, and fall victim to the woos, I've had a number of people tell me horror stories about "having" to spend most of their benefits on homeopathic consultations, because there’s nothing the GP can do for them. CFS is very susceptible to the placebo effect for a number of reasons,
1 mood plays a massive part in the severity of many of the symptoms,
2 the severity of the symptoms can fluctuate quite rapidly, Carly can be bed ridden one day, and feeling good enough to leave the house a couple of days later for instance and
3 people with CFS often have very poor memories, unless they carefully document their symptoms they cant remember exactly how they felt a month or two ago, if someone in "authority" such as a homeopath tells them they're getting better, many of them will believe the homeopath, as it's the only information they have to go on.

[Admin]

I think it is very important to make the point that psychosomatic is very, very real; and it's not just a case of, say, changing your mind about it and it will go away.

The reasons for it must be very complex, certainly not consciously made, and not at all understood. This does mean that conventional treatments have little to offer and this leaves the way for alternative practitioners who are prepared to sell false hope whereas real doctors are not allowed to.

I don't know a great deal about ME/CFS but I did come across it when I was looking into psychosomatic illnesses. The upside is that it does seem to clear up of its own accord, although it can last several years.

And you're right to criticise Brodski; as skeptics we should be striving to understand things at a deeper level - not resorting to stereotypes or general misconceptions.

[Sgt Badass]

Indeed, us skeptics should learn, and I think we do, but thanks for pointing it out.

We all take from personal experience but we should note that personal experience doesn't equal scientific fact - which is what the woos believe.

By the way, it's not just ME, depression and CFS that sends people to the woo side. Many people go because their GP just can't listen. It seems that most doctors are just pill pushers, simply because they don't have time to spend with people.

[brodski]

We all take from personal experience but we should note that personal experience doesn't equal scientific fact - which is what the woos believe.

I understand what you are saying BUT it depends vastly on what we are taking from personal experience, and what claims we make.
Given the number of people I know and trust ,who claim to suffer from a certain set of symptoms, I am face with 2 possibilities, either they are lying to me, and are engaged in some kind of elaborate hoax or conspiracy, or they really are suffering from these symptoms.
There is no way they could be mistaken about feeling the way they claim to feel, HOWEAVER this makes no claim about the nature and cause of those symptoms.
given the evidence which is presented to me, and the possible causes for those "results", I find that it is much more likely that CFS does exist, but possibly "only" as a psychosomatic illness.
I think we have to be careful of dismissing all anecdotal evidence, especially when it makes no particular remarkable claim.

[Ginger Rogers]

Hello
interesting subject. I suffer from IBS and other digestive problems, feel tired a lot and suffer from anxiety and such.
I am fully aware that these are 'phsychosomatic' illnesses, but actually for me that makes the problem far worse. I'v got doctors basically telling me it's 'all in the mind' and nothing wrong with me, but CLEARLY there is something wrong with me or I wouldn't feel like this.

I can see how brodski got defensive there, you simply cannot tar everyone with the same brush. No doubt some people do 'fake' illness or play on their symptoms to get benefits or whatever, and we all think the same I should imagine about those types of people.
But the mind is very powerful and you can certainly 'think' yourself into being ill.

Perhaps it's time that medical science started to seriously address these issues, because there has to be a helluva lot of really ill people out there being told there's nothing wrong with them. That simply lowers their self esteem and confidence which is simply going to amplify the problem and therefore the symptoms. Its no wonder is it, that people try the 'woo side' even if there's substantial evidence to suggest these therapies don't work, take it from one who knows you try Anything when you're desperate.

[odeed]

Saw a report about this, on the northeast lunchtime news today, didn't catch all of it, but from what I did gather it costs £600 for a 3 day course, which seems to be powerpoint presentation about linking body and mind in positive thought/energy.

One of the counsellors/practitioners was a former ME sufferer, who wanted to help others (yeah), a from what I could tell he had no medical background (nice house though).

Of course after the snippet they had the disclaimer from the NorthEast ME society that "they would not recommend this treatment".

[GDN2112]

Hi Guys

I was the Lightning Process Practioner on the Tele last night (Look North). I find your comments interesting. (I am also glad you like the house)

I understand where some of your comments come from, I have to admit I was exactly like that about six months before doing it. I thought what arrogant fool can say that they can teach people a tool that can rapidly aid them in recovery from ME\CFS in only 3 days. But I had tried everything else including vitamin injections and seeing specalists (for them just to tell me there was nothing wrong).

i am not going to preach this to you, It is for u guys to decide for your self. All I can say is it worked for me [link removed] it has worked for my clients who have traveled from as far a Norway. I know that ME is a physical illness I have been there I do not joke about ME, it was a living hell, not being able to see my son because I was in bed was real and it is something I can never get back.

But never the less, what ever you guys think
Happy Christmas,

[Admin]

I'm sure that you were very happy with the exposure and advertising that appearing on Look North gave you GDN, but the fact that one or two people may appear to recover after your 'therapy' does not actually prove it works.

It would be interesting to see how many people pay their £600 and don't improve. Then we may get a truer picture of what is actually going on.

And just a reminder that the North East ME society said that "they would not recommend this treatment" (!)

[GDN2112]

There are some very good points you raise.

we as an association have a 97% success rate, after every seminar we get the clients to fill in the form and email it to The creator. I currently have a 100% success rate.

If you think about it, personally I spent well over £10,000 to try all sorts of therapies and medical treatments to get well nothing helped. The Lightning process did I personally would try anything that could possibly help me recover. If you have suffered from ME for 10 years and you visit a therapist or private specalist you could pay between £20 to £200 may be more per session. if you have gone every week for over a year you might of spent more than £600.00 and you might not get any improvement. but you stick at it because you have heard it helped.

But I do understand your argument, but it does work, I had a girl from norway arrive in a wheel chair this week and on day 2 arrive walking and that night she walked round the shops for six hours. She had not done this for 6 years.

I would never try and change your beliefs, that is your choice i respect that.

take care, nice chatting to you

[Fiona]

Without wishing to get into the efficacy of this treatment I must say I was surprised to see an easy assumption that this condition does not exist or is psycholgical/psychiatric in nature as late as 2006. So far as I know there is good evidence it is a physical illness. Research has not yet produced a definitive cause and treatment but there is some evidence to support a physical change which may improve diagnosis and treatment. For example

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0110013424.htm

http://listserv.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/wa...O-CURE&P=R3807

[GDN2112]

Hi fiona

I agree it is a phsyical illness, infact the CDC have rated it as a disease of the neurological system. But in most illnesses there is a psycholgical element. I know its phsyical, no one would choose to be unable to walk or want to be bed bound for several years with out noise or bright lights.

ME can open many doors for debates and there is always some report that can challenge another. Thats what makes it so difficult to treat.

But I believe to treat ME you have to think completely outside the box, doctors have openly said they find it difficult to treat, in fact alternative medicine had more success over medical treatment for ME\CFS.

Take care

[Admin]

If ME/CFS are truly physical conditions then I cannot see how a placebo intervention like the Lightning Process can effect a cure - especially within a matter of hours as claimed.

On the other hand, if they are psychosomatic (as is still widely believed) then a placebo intervention could very well bring about such a 'miracle' cure.

If they are psychosomatic conditions then something like the Lightning Process actually could be a useful intervention as conventional treatments do nothing for psychosomatic illnesses. Of course, its effectiveness would still have to be evaluated to see just how effective it actually is (claims of 97% or 100% success rates being extremely unlikely to be true).

It may be that there are some people whose ME/CFS has a physical cause and some whose is psychosomatic but they're all considered as the same thing when in fact they are different.

But the fact that some people seem to have been cured by the Lightning Process suggests to me that there is a strong psychosomatic element to at least some of the people who suffer these conditions.

[Admin]

I noticed an entry on the forum at the psychologist.org.uk mentioning this process: (source).

I've copied the entry in full as I note that they will be changing their forum software soon and the entry may be lost.

The BBC has recently devoted attention to the Lightning Process. This is described by the inventor as a training programme which apparently cures 90% of people with CFS. It is based on the assumption that the illness is perpetuated by raised/abnormal levels of adrenalin and cortisol (there is no evidence for the former, no consistent abnormality re the latter, but the inventor doesn't seem too bothered about such facts).

Talking to patients, it seems that the LP is associated with high rates of relapse which the inventor blames on not keeping to the training regime. If you fail, it's your fault. Some patients describe something akin to brainwashing.

I thought I'd flag this up, in case anyone asks about this intervention. I can't find any sound evidence supporting the theory behind it or its efficacy. However, like other programmes focusing on negative thoughts and behaviours, it may help those with emotional complications associated with fatigue, e.g. fear, anxiety, avoidance. I've recommended that patients try CBT first. It's on the NHS (LP costs £600 plus), and therapists are accountable.

It is claimed that it bears no resemblance to Mickel or Reverse therapy, but I can't find any evidence to support that. They seem remarkably similar to me.

Has anyone found a patient who did not suffer from stress and anxiety but also improved on LP?

The dishonesty behind LP (i.e. obfuscation about its psychological basis) makes me uncomfortable.

The BBC interveiwed tow people who are studying LP. One is a practitioner. ~There was no alternative view from an expert, and no answer to the question what LP involves. Apparently, it's too difficult to explain simply. It takes 9 hours to do that.


Author: Ellen Marianne Goudsmit

This first point of note is the seemingly complete lack of information about what the Lightning Process actually consists of and what the real success rate of it is. As I said earlier, claims of 90% or higher are extremely unlikely to be true.

The author of this entry also states that the LP is "associated with high rates of relapse" and that some patients say that LP is "something akin to brainwashing". Now I'm reading between the lines somewhat here but this is suggestive of a technique that is psychologically aggressive and which forces a strong compliance response in the patient whilst they are undergoing the treatment.

This, of course, may give the impression that the treatment works well; but it really doesn't work if patients relapse once the treatment is over.

And the practise of blaming the patient for the failure of a miraculous treatment is all too familiar to skeptics.

Obviously ME/CFS is a complex and perplexing condition that is difficult to treat. Unfortunately, this makes sufferers of these conditions an easy target for those offering miraculous cures and whose claims are bolstered by a credulous media prepared to feature stories of cures based on anecdotes.

It would be nice to see some transparency and honesty from proponents of LP rather than grandiose claims backed by obfuscation. Then at least it could be assessed to see if it really is of use for some patients.

[0800]

I have had M.E. on and off for about 4 years now- and I would like to point out [for me anyway] I have NO psychosomatic symptoms or causes. I am a naturally positive person and although this illness has broken up my school life- preventing me from socialising or playing sport - I have stayed positive throughout my bouts of illness- I have never had depression and do not enjoy missing out on a normal childhood.

I hadn’t had a relapse for 2 years- until I stupidly played in a tennis match about 2 months ago [as we all thought I had fully recovered] I am now back to where I started 4 years ago.

I had heard about the lightening process previously- but never really believed it- you wouldn't believe the amount of times my parents have been scammed out of ridiculous amounts of money for a 'miracle cure!' But we were so desperate we decided to try it out mainly because I was just reaching my A level exams and desperate to be able to do them to get into university.

I tried my best to keep an open mind about it all- but from the first session I knew this was not for me- it consisted of 4 hours of watching a presentation - not really any interaction with the 'therapist' which I was esp. shocked about as I was the only one in this session! They expected me to just sit there and listen without any breaks- how do they think this is possible for someone who finds it hard concentrating and feels awful? The next day I was determined to, again, keep an open mind and really try. Well as soon as the therapist told me that the reason I got M.E. was because my parents were unconsciously putting pressure on me by being enthusiastic about everything I do [what a load of @@**!] and because I feel that I have to compete with my 2 older brothers and she actually had the cheek to tell me that they would be upset when I got better because they depended on me being ill [let me point out I have a brilliant relationship with my family and they make me feel happy the way I am whatever I do!]- I completely blocked the whole process out- I feel that she didn't listen to anything I said- and she had a text book reason to why everyone gets M.E.

They also say that if you do not recover after this process then it is because you do not want to get better- well I am sorry but does that not remind you of Freud’s theories? Constantly backing them up so no one can say that it doesn’t work?

However I would like to point out that it does work with some people- in fact i know of a few women who have been wheelchair bound for years and were able to walk after the process- but you have to question the profile of the people that it helps? Having had long periods of not being ill- I have a lot of support from friends and I know when I do have a relapse- that in time I will get better in time- Some people have much more severe symptoms and perhaps it only helps these people who probably and sadly feel very alienated by their illness.

I just want to ask you all not to judge and comment so confidently about knowing that M.E. is psychological- because for some people it certainly is not- and until you experience it - or a member of your family does- then you have no idea how debilitating and horrible it is. I would give anything to not have it however I do know that there are things that are a lot worse out there!

Ok rant over!!

[k8Fisher]

Such a relief to get an account from someone with ME whose actually attended the sessions!!!??! I agree with the other ME sufferers how many organisations HAVE to acknowledge ME exists before we stop getting these "all in the mind" comments from professionals and non professionals alike.

I was referred to a psychologist and received similar "negativity" as you seem to have experienced on the second day of the three day session. Quite supprising they didnt really acknowledge the fact that sitting in front of a presentation for a long period wasnt suitable for an ME sufferer. I too have problems with energy and sometimes get to the point that my energy is so low I cant take visual or auditory information.

Mind if I ask if youve heard of another therapy called Buteyko. I happen to have been affected by adult chickenpox which attacked my lungs which subsequently led to ME. My homeopath another ME sufferer herself substained a viral attack on her body which damaged her heart and led to ME. She has suggested that buteyoko though usually used for those with chronic breathing illnesses can improve energy levels.

Have you heard of this, and once again Id like to thank you for saving me £600 and more importantly yet another LET DOWN. I joined the list to thank you for your post.

Kindest Regards

Kate Fisher