Lightning Process??!!!

[Pebble]

is where I've got my lastest info from. It takes me a long time to process info but keeps my grey matter going even if the white matter is dodgy.
Thanks for the reply. I think I might try a trusted homeopath instead of LP. Still costs but this guy was very good with my daughters asthma.
Sleepyhead

A presentation to a audience of patients requires creation of a cogent story line, with no real room for the level of controversy that exists in the literature. I am not disagreeing with his hypothesis, simply observing that it is one of a number that may eventually gain widespread acceptance.
As I understand his thesis it is simply that CFS is a form of chronic postviral or persistent viremia induced fatigue induced via immune mediated reduction in cellular energy production. However his reliance on single small studies that support his contention, ignoring other data would not get him a Nobel prize.

Why would you think homeopathy has any support here?

[tolman]

I think it'd be fairly safe to say that if a simple process did reliably give rapid, complete and permanent recovery from long-term debilitating conditions, that it would be likely to become widely known very quickly, and attract the attention of the general medical profession, not to mention medical insurance companies and governments who fund medical treatment.

That is, if such a process really existed, it would seem like the time between first hearing about it from the odd person and being unable to avoid hearing about it from everyone would be so short that there'd be little or nothing to be lost by waiting.

[sleepyhead]

However his reliance on single small studies that support his contention, ignoring other data would not get him a Nobel prize.

Why would you think homeopathy has any support here?

Thanks for your interest Pebble. I agree with your comments but that unfortunately seems to be how research into this condition is being done. Nothing is concrete because of it.

Homeopathy is something that helped my daughter. I have taken her to a few homeopaths but one in particular really did help her. She was too young for the improvement to faked.
He doesn't pretend a cure but has had some success in the improvement of symptoms in ME/CFS patients.

AS a sufferer I think clutching at straws is the best I can hope for.

I have heard that the NHS are talking about a trial to use the Lightening Process on children. I would be interested in seeing the results of that.
I have found a course by 'Gupter' on the internet which is apparently similar to the lightening process. Some of the course is free so I might have a look at that for now.
Maybe you're right Tolman. Maybe waiting a while WOULD be a good idea.

IDDM

[brianp]

I have heard that the NHS are talking about a trial to use the Lightening Process on children.

http://niceguidelines.files.wordpres...lp-march-2.pdf

"£164,000 awarded for new research into the treatment of a chronic
childhood condition"
...
"The team will carry out a pilot project to investigate how to recruit to a randomised
controlled trial looking at the Phil Parker Lightning Process® and specialist medical
care. This will be the first study of its kind in this area, and the team hopes to
establish a basis for a larger scale multicentre research project."

[Drop Bear]

Homeopathy is something that helped my daughter.

ReallY? WOW!


I guess there's a first time for everything.


How can I put this delicately? Homeopathy is woo,nonsense, a scam, a confidence trick, quackery of the first water,rubbish,idiocy, non-medicine:It doesn't bleedin' well work!

There is no evidence to support the efficacy of homeopathy. NONE.

I'm aware of the studies of experimenst with allergies used as evidence by homeopaths and their loopy supporters,including that intellectual giant and pillock of the establishment,HRH Charles,Prince Of Wales. The results have never been replicated.

The most important criterium for any medical treatment is that it works for the majority of people most of the time. There is no evidence that is the case with any homeopathic treatment.

I don't doubt your daugther got better. I do question the claim it was due to homeopathy. Personal anecdotes and tesimonials are not accepted as scientific evidence.

For credible claims of a cure of your daughter's condition via homeopathy vs placebo,there woudl need to be independently published evidence of succesful treatment of a large number of others with the same condition.As far as I'm aware there is no such evidence of any homeopathic treatment working.

Sorry,wrong forum to try to promote or defend the dangerous drivel which is homeopathy. People die all the time due to using homeopathy rather than medicine.

[sleepyhead]

ReallY? WOW!


I guess there's a first time for everything.


How can I put this delicately? Homeopathy is woo,nonsense, a scam, a confidence trick, quackery of the first water,rubbish,idiocy, non-medicine:It doesn't bleedin' well work!

There is no evidence to support the efficacy of homeopathy. NONE.

.

Ok.
Its ok that some don't accept this form of medicine. Many don't accept the existance of ME/CFS. I thnk I was lucky to find an exceptional homeopathic practitioner. He was also a medical doctor so traditional and alternative understanding was there. For me thats important.
I moved house away from this practitioner and to be honest haven't found anyone I would consider of similar effectiveness.

I was desperate with my daughter. She was covered from head to toe with eczema and traditional medicine was making her worse. She was on three different inhalers for asthma and couldn't run across a car park with me to find a parking ticket from the machine.
With this treatment, which involved vega testing and bio resonance (no I don't know how that works) she was able to come off the inhalers completely. We could pin point what foods and allergens were affecting her, and she could be given medication that was effective but could be changed when the allergens affecting her changed. We could alter what foods she had and find out which were safe.

Traditional medicine can be very black and white.

My son also had a severe allergic reaction to insect bites which was aggravated by the creams available. Traditional medicine gave him steroid tablets and told him not to play outside and never to go camping!. They were talking about Epi pens, but that wasn't necessary because...this practitioner took away the allergic response. My son only needed one course of treatment.

I'm not a hippy crank looking for an alternative way to live. I trained as a nurse. I needed an effective way to allow my children a normal life though. This was effective.
When we moved away my daughter did struggle for a while. She was older by then though and I think her own body responses were stronger. We looked at other homeopaths but they didn't have the little machine to test. They weren't half as good.

Maybe Drop Bear you haven't found yourself in a position where traditional medicine doesn't work?
I wonder what you would do if you did?

I'm quite excited about this NHS testing of the Lightening Process. If they have positive responses maybe it will be available for adults too. It all takes time.

I haven't been back to that practitioner for my condition. Travelling is exhausting but I am considering it

[brianp]

Ok.
Its ok that some don't accept this form of medicine.

But that's the point, homeopathy is NOT a form of medicine, it's a form of magic. The supposed medication is nothing but pure water which might well alleviate thirst, but can do no more. We can say with absolute confidence that, apart from possible placebo effects, homeopathy does not work and cannot work because there is literally nothing to it.

Vega testing and bio resonance!!!! Surely you are kidding. They are utter hogwash - this is woo of the highest order. If you give one second's credence to such absurdities then you really are on the wrong forum.

You say you are not a crank - yet you subject your children to untested, unscientific treatments. Clearly your definition of "crank" isn't the same as mine.

What would I do if I had a condition which "traditional medicine" - I think you mean "real medicine" - couldn't help? Well if I'd thoroughly explored all the many avenues open to me through the NHS - second GP opinion, referral to a different consultant etc - I might look around for help from the private sector, and I mean real doctors of course. If all that failed then my next step would depend on the nature of the condition - basically it would be: alleviate the symptoms if possible and live with it. One thing is certain, my actions would not involve witch doctors or their 21st century successors.

[sleepyhead]

ok

[Pebble]

Ok.


I was desperate with my daughter. She was covered from head to toe with eczema and traditional medicine was making her worse. She was on three different inhalers for asthma and couldn't run across a car park with me to find a parking ticket from the machine.


Traditional medicine can be very black and white.

My son also had a severe allergic reaction to insect bites which was aggravated by the creams available. Traditional medicine gave him steroid tablets and told him not to play outside and never to go camping!. They were talking about Epi pens, but that wasn't necessary because...this practitioner took away the allergic response. My son only needed one course of treatment.

First childhood eczema and asthma do tend to improve with age, so if you go from practitioner sooner or later one of these will be credited with success.

'Traditional' medicine has it's fair share of ill informed individuals, whose incompetence plays into the hands of charlatons. The medicine itself is certainly not 'black and white', but does demand a minimum standard of evidence before treating children as guinea pigs.

A single? allergic reaction leading to such advice! That sounds like incompetence to me. Without seeing an allergy specialist (even if there were multiple episodes) such advice should be treated with the contempt it deserves. The stupiditiy of some clinicians is not evidence if favour of quackery.

[Croydon Bob]

ok

Idiot. If you don't even know that homeopathic "medicine" is just water then don't try to engage with people who aren't as thick as you.

Oh, and I have some magic crystals that will cure your daughter. £5 each.

[Drop Bear]

@Croydon Bob

You win one internet for the pithiest response.


Two more and you qualify for admission to The Order Of The Golden Bilby.

[sleepyhead]

Ok I'm beginning to see that some here seem to enjoy stepping on people. Thats ok.

I'm not sure how scientific it is to start calling people idiot and stupid just because they have a different opinion to you.

My daughter is better now and yes the condition did improve with age. She grew out of most symptoms.
My point is that at the time when she was at her worst traditional orthodox medicine made her worse.
As a mother I had to do something.
When you find yourself in that situation maybe you will understand more.
Its ok that your life has not yet experienced a need for an alternative in order to help someone you love. You're very lucky.

I realise this is a skeptics site but putting others experiences down is not skeptisism its ignorance.
Again thats ok. I don't mind. Not offended in the least. What ever rocks your boat. lol

I did try some homeopaths who did nothing for us.
But don't dismiss all because some are bogus.
I found a practitioner that did a lot of obvious and immediate good at the time.

Just because you haven't found out why yet doesn't mean it belongs in la la land.
Look back over this thread. In 2006 no one had anything positive to say about ME/CFS
Now in 2010 it can be discussed because knowledge has moved on.
There are many people suffering from invisable and untreatable conditions because science hasn't caught up yet. Many children are struggling with symptoms that doctors can do nothing about. How do you expect parents to react to that.

I am well within my rights not to join in if I am feeling the thread is becoming needlessly negative or ridiculing. Thats my choice.
sleepyhead

[Drop Bear]

I'm not sure how scientific it is to start calling people idiot and stupid just because they have a different opinion to you.

That was not my perception.

It seemed to me Bob was not making an ad hominem attack,but accurately describing your ignorant and rather stupid position.

I don't know you,so have no idea if you are a clinical idiot.I doubt it. However, I think it's fair to describe your defence of the quackery of homeopathy on a skeptics' forum as idiotic-- especially when it's obvious you have little understanding of the basis of the claims for homeopathy.

Sorry,really can't be bothered with you any more.You may not be an idiot,but you do seem to be a willfully ignorant fool.

[Pebble]

Just because you haven't found out why yet doesn't mean it belongs in la la land.
Look back over this thread. In 2006 no one had anything positive to say about ME/CFS
Now in 2010 it can be discussed because knowledge has moved on.
There are many people suffering from invisable and untreatable conditions because science hasn't caught up yet. Many children are struggling with symptoms that doctors can do nothing about. How do you expect parents to react to that.

I appreciate some here get fed up with non evidence based assertions and do not put forward thoughtful responses.

You argue that people were negative in respect of CFS 4 years ago and are less negative now. That is what the evidence shows at each time point. Changing position as the evidence requires is exactly what skepticism is all about.

On cannot however generalise from CFS to homeopathy. In CFS '2006' we had groups of individuals that were ill defined, certainly containing many individuals with depression, eating disorders etc. Thus studies tended to show no consistent patterns - ie no evidence that a distinct syndrome existed. With better definition and standardisation of the precise group of patients, studies have begun to show some interesting reproducible abnormalities. I am not sure one could go any further than that at this stage. To be sure visionaries and believers got us from there to here, but only with the help of skeptics to point out where the evidence was too weak to convince.

Homeopathy unlike CFS has been around as a distinct entity for a couple of hundred years. It has been very extensively studied, in the laboratory, in animal studies, in open label studies and in very many double blind trials. After all this effort what can one say - well if you believe; that water may have memory of the chosen molecules (but pure water is not pure! it has more contaminants than residual molecules of interest); that like treats like (despite overwhelming evidence now that this is not so); that some properly constructed DBRCTs and a shed load of poorly designed trials suggest benefit (we now know precisely why poorly constructed trials always favour the investigators desired results, and statistically some properly constructed trials must be positive whatever the inefficacy of your agent).
So this is a very different situation - here we have very good reasons for accepting that homeopathy is bogus. No one is here to deny you your beliefs, but it is offensive to use anecdotes in support magic on a skeptics forum - that is what leads to negativity.
If you wish to discuss something that has no useful evidence base on a skeptics forum, all that is asked is that the most basic fallacies are avoided when making the case for your chosen remedy.

[tolman]

There is a difference between 'being apparently successfully treated by a homeopath' and 'being apparently successfully treated by homeopathy'.

If the person concerned is also giving advice on diet, etc, any results aren't necessarily anything to do with homeopathy.

Likewise, if some foods are part of the problem, if the person is [apparently] using an [apparently] wacky process to work out foods to avoid, etc, it doesn't mean that they can't end up with useful results even if the process itself doesn't work - they could try things until they get lucky, or could be choosing things based on general experience rather than the method.