Chiropractors/Osteopaths legally recognised

[Jeff_P]

Thanks.

For the record, this is the sign that I believe TS should have a go at:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/123199/DSC_00142.jpg


And, while we're at, they have this sign up for considerably more than a week. Surely the claim "free spinal checks this week" implies that spinal checks are not free other weeks and thereby the claim can only be valid for one particular week:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/123199/DSC_00145.jpg

[Trinoc]

And, while we're at, they have this sign up for considerably more than a week. Surely the claim "free spinal checks this week" implies that spinal checks are not free other weeks and thereby the claim can only be valid for one particular week:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/123199/DSC_00145.jpg

There's a danger of becoming over-zealous here and appearing to be professional complainers, which might detract from the impact of genuine concerns. If we are going to take on claims like "Free this week" then we might as well be crusading against DFS and every other high street store that claims to have a sale on every day of the year.

Let's stick to the important stuff. If the people on the door really are not qualified medical doctors then there is a cause for complaint - probably to the General Medical Council rather than Trading Standards, but I'm not sure about this. If they are genuine medical doctors, then I don't really care whether they give free offers on treatment or not.

[Blue Wode]

Thanks.

For the record, this is the sign that I believe TS should have a go at:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/123199/DSC_00142.jpg

Assuming that they’re not MDs, unless it’s made clear elsewhere on the clinic’s exterior that they are actually ‘Doctors of Chiropractic’, then they are definitely contravening section C1.8 of the General Chiropractic Council’s Code of Practice. It's going to be interesting to see how Trading Standards handles this.

And, while we're at, they have this sign up for considerably more than a week. Surely the claim "free spinal checks this week" implies that spinal checks are not free other weeks and thereby the claim can only be valid for one particular week:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/123199/DSC_00145.jpg

That banner looks really tacky. Do you know exactly how long it’s been there? Because if it’s only appeared recently, then it could be because the clinic’s experiencing a downturn in business, possibly due to the British Chiropractic Association v. Simon Singh libel suit. Here’s an interesting post which an osteopath made on Sacral Musings back in November:

This could actually cripple the BCA in the UK as I think they've chosen an unfortunate time to use legal means to answer their critics. The problem they have is the perception, rightly or wrongly understood by the media, that they are trying to silence open discussion on what is now termed 'quack medicine'.

They are likely to fail to convince the public that they are genuine and aren't selling snake oil. Their marketing strategy is way off-beam, and I know a couple of DC's who have noticed a crashing fall in their patient numbers already. Homeopathy is likewise being ridiculed and has nothing to defend itself with except its reliance on the converted patient population who believe in it…

http://www.sacralmusings.com/forum/topics/921165:Topic:25592?id=921165%3ATopic%3A25592&page= 4#comments

[My bold]

BTW, Jack of Kent was banned from that 10-page Sacral Musings discussion, although they did relent and publish his comments in one of the later posts. Apparently, we can look forward to more on the matter from Jack soon:

Posts coming up on:

My Proposals for Reform of English Libel Law

On Being Banned By Osteopaths…

http://www.jackofkent.blogspot.com/

Getting back to the banner, in the ‘Bad Backs’ chapter of her book, Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of Us All, Rose Shapiro shows a photograph of a chiropractic clinic which uses the same marketing tactics. For those who have the book, the photograph is on p.141 positioned below half a page of text which enlightens readers with the following:

BJ [Palmer, son of the founder of chiropractic] had the walls of the Palmer School [of Chiropractic] decorated with ‘epigrams, admonitions, cartoons and witticisms’, including the still-famous slogans ‘the world is your cow – but you must do the milking; and ‘early to bed and early to rise – work like hell and advertise’. And his entrepreneurial spirit lives on today in those chiropractors who offer ‘Free Spinal Checks’ as a way of attracting prospective patients…

It’s also interesting to note that in the ‘Questionable Marketing Strategies’ chapter of his book, Inside Chiropractic: A Patient’s Guide, second generation, evidence-based chiropractor, Samuel Homola, says on pp. 92-93 that:

Chiropractic practice-building consultants suggest more aggressive activities such as health fair screenings, posture evaluations, patient appreciation days, telemarketing, offering free consultations, and turning one’s patients into recruiters. From what I have seen these strategies usually involve deception….Many chiropractors attract patients through free posture screenings at shopping centers, schools, health expositions, health-food stores, and their offices…..From what I have seen, virtually all who get screened are either told they have a problem (such as an abnormal curvature) or are advised to make an appointment for further evaluation.

So, desperation could well be setting in. The clinic certainly seems to be putting a lot of effort into attracting clients who, if in pain, would probably be better off taking a couple of paracetamols, and who, if not in pain, would do well to run away.

[gsh341]

Just a quick question here.

Have any of you ever been to a chiropractor for an adjustment before?

I only ask because it would appear that perhaps you should have some first-hand knowledge of chiropractic and the chiropractors before you decide to ridicule them all as "quacks".

I'll admit, there are those that are less professional than others and try odd remedies that are highly questionable, but many are very knowledgeable about the mechanics of the body and they can provide relief from back and joint pain.

Just remember that at one time the use of leeches was considered the proper way to deal with many ailments while the Arab idea of surgery was considered barbaric. The very notion of germs and viruses was once ridiculed as lunacy.

Several people I know also thought of chiropractors as "quacks" but changed their minds after just a couple adjustments. In fact the US Army once treated chiropractors with utter disdain, but they are now a relatively common sight in the military.

http://www.crdamc.amedd.army.mil/def...e=chiropractic

http://www.acatoday.org/userImages/F...tsheet2008.pdf

http://www.usafa.af.mil/10abw/10mdg/...?catname=10mdg

[Pebble]

Just a quick question here.

Have any of you ever been to a chiropractor for an adjustment before?

I only ask because it would appear that perhaps you should have some first-hand knowledge of chiropractic and the chiropractors before you decide to ridicule them all as "quacks".

This is definately the wrong approach. The question is not whether you have a plesant experience, or due to the natural variation of any condition feel temporarily relieved. The issue is whether there is any logic supporting the therapeutic approach and any body of evidence to show that it works for the conditions for which it is offered. Personal experience is irrelevant.

[Matt]

Just a quick question here.

Have any of you ever been to a chiropractor for an adjustment before?

I only ask because it would appear that perhaps you should have some first-hand knowledge of chiropractic and the chiropractors before you decide to ridicule them all as "quacks".

Oh no... I'm not falling for that one again. Ten years of my life I wasted on Herion just because my opinion that it muight be addictive wasn't valid without trying it first. I was sure that you could get an HIV infection from sharting needles but decided that my opinion on that was invalid until I tried that too. Only after I contracted HIV was I allowed to express the opinion that the HIV denialists who said that AIDS was caused by antiretroviral drugs were nut jobs. Of course I had to try to survive without treatment before I could truly say that they were wrong. Now I'm dead and buried and can confirm that Herion is addictive, you can get HIV from sharing needles, HIV does cause AIDS and AIDS will kill you if left untreated. However anyone else who says so should try it first. Even now there's people who don't believe me. "If you're dead" they say, "how come you're typing this?" Well I ask you... People who aren't even dead pretending to be experts. Only when you're dead can you question what I have to say.

Linda Epping could comment on being dead, as can Laurie Jean Matheson. Likewise Dr. Ronald Grainger goes beyond his medical qualifications in being able to boast first hand experience of being dead. Kimberly Lee Strohecker has a similar level of experience and Wendy Venegas is just as dead.

If you can get any of these people to say that given their first hand experience of being dead, that dead people can't type messages on internet forums then I'll have to admit that I'm lying. Until then I won't listen to such slanders from people who haven't tried death for themselves.

[Mojo]

Just remember that at one time the use of leeches was considered the proper way to deal with many ailments while the Arab idea of surgery was considered barbaric.

And the use of leeches/bleeding and the other practices of 18th/19th century medicine were abandoned because of the evidence that they were unhelpful. Chiropractic, on the other hand, has continued to hold that illness is caused by "subluxations" and can be cured by spinal manipulation of these subluxations in the face of evidence that not only fails to show that it is effective for pretty much anything apart from back pain (and even there is no more effective than other, safer, treatments), but also in the face of evidence that these "subluxations" cannot be reliably observed.

The very notion of germs and viruses was once ridiculed as lunacy.

Indeed, it was ridiculed as recently as 2008.

You're on (to say the least) slightly dodgy ground bringing up the germ theory in support of people who still believe that illness is caused by spinal subluxations.

[gsh341]

And the use of leeches/bleeding and the other practices of 18th/19th century medicine were abandoned because of the evidence that they were unhelpful. Chiropractic, on the other hand, has continued to hold that illness is caused by "subluxations" and can be cured by spinal manipulation of these subluxations in the face of evidence that not only fails to show that it is effective for pretty much anything apart from back pain (and even there is no more effective than other, safer, treatments), but also in the face of evidence that these "subluxations" cannot be reliably observed.

Indeed, it was ridiculed as recently as 2008.

You're on (to say the least) slightly dodgy ground bringing up the germ theory in support of people who still believe that illness is caused by spinal subluxations.

My chiropractor has never once tried to tell me that there were no such things as germs, that traditional medical doctors have no use, that all illness is the result of subluxations, etc. He knows the value of the traditional medical practice and limits himself to spinal and joint issues only.

I have thrown my back out several times during my life growing up on a farm, sports and my military career and the traditional method employed by the standard medical doctor is bed rest for 1 to 7 days with a pain killer and muscle relaxants.

The chiropractic approach is finding out what is causing the pain and correcting the problem then and there. My results have been much faster than the old "Take this and go to bed." method. Usually I get complete relief in mere hours with chiropractic care with an immediate lessening of pain during the adjustments.

The basic idea is that through some activity a vertebrae gets out of position and presses on a nerve causing pain. It may also cause nearby muscles to contract, further pulling the vertebrae out of position and essentially creating a feedback loop of cause and effect.

Standard MD's use muscle relaxants and rest to allow the body to relax enough to break that cycle and it works if given enough time.

Chiropractors get faster results by first massaging the area to start the relaxation of the muscles, then repositions the vertebrae with hands on manipulation to break the cycle of pain and muscle contraction. Some soreness is occasionally felt until the muscle completely relaxes, and it is best to refrain from doing anything to further strain the area for a few hours, but the results are immediate and lasting.

I think what you have are some holistic medicine types posing as chiropractors. The holistic medicine approach is rather quirky and I have seen no valid basis for their ideas, but I am not outright condemning them.

[Pebble]

I have thrown my back out several times during my life growing up on a farm, sports and my military career and the traditional method employed by the standard medical doctor is bed rest for 1 to 7 days with a pain killer and muscle relaxants.

Used to be, the medical profession now (generally) knows better, posture training and physiotherapy give better results

The chiropractic approach is finding out what is causing the pain and correcting the problem then and there. My results have been much faster than the old "Take this and go to bed." method. Usually I get complete relief in mere hours with chiropractic care with an immediate lessening of pain during the adjustments.

Yes physiotherapy and posture training work, and it is this aspect of the chiropracter's actions that is most likely to be of benefit. We know what works because of studies showing same, this has been collected by physiotherapists and those medics interested in posture - nil from chiropracters.

The basic idea is that through some activity a vertebrae gets out of position and presses on a nerve causing pain. It may also cause nearby muscles to contract, further pulling the vertebrae out of position and essentially creating a feedback loop of cause and effect.

No they don't. An assumption made by chiropractics is that everything is down to vertebral subluxations, when it comes to back pain they may rarely be correct. However, studies show no evidence of said subluxations as typical even here.

So the issue is not whether some people find some aspects of this activity beneficial for back pain, it is the incorrect (unverifiable) assumptions of why it works (on those occasions where it is not an obvious waste of time) and the extension into areas where it cannot work is the problem.

[Jack of Kent]

BTW, Jack of Kent was banned from that 10-page Sacral Musings discussion, although they did relent and publish his comments in one of the later posts. Apparently, we can look forward to more on the matter from Jack soon...

Indeed...

[gsh341]

No they don't. An assumption made by chiropractics is that everything is down to vertebral subluxations, when it comes to back pain they may rarely be correct. However, studies show no evidence of said subluxations as typical even here.

So the issue is not whether some people find some aspects of this activity beneficial for back pain, it is the incorrect (unverifiable) assumptions of why it works (on those occasions where it is not an obvious waste of time) and the extension into areas where it cannot work is the problem.

Would you consider an X-ray showing a misaligned vertebrae as scientific proof? I know I would.

I have, on occasion, hurt my back bad enough ( I fell off a ladder at work) that the chiropractor has taken x-rays before attempting adjustments. The misaligned vertebrae was clearly visible and the effect it was having was my spine being out of position by over an inch from top to bottom.

After an initial heat pad and massage to loosen the muscles and a rather rough set of adjustments I was standing straighter and my pain was much less. I saw the chiropractor 2 more times over the next 4 days for that incident and the result was complete resolution of the problem without the use of muscle relaxants and nothing more for the pain than Tylenol. There was no physical therapy other than the adjustments and each visit was about 1/2 hour long.

In a similar incident just a couple years before while on active duty (I was playing racquetball and hit the wall and floor hard while trying for a return shot) I was ordered to bed with muscle relaxants and Codeine for the pain and the problem was fully resolved in 2 weeks and took almost a full week in bed before I could move without lots of pain.

So considering that the chiropractor accomplished the healing in ten days less time without any potentially addicting or harmful drugs, I'd say that the chiropractor is the better choice for resolving issues with the spine and joints in many cases.

I'm not saying that chiropractors are the best solution for everything, but they have their proper place in the medical world.

Unless you have first hand knowledge of the work they do, your internet based research will only get you so far and your opinion will be tainted buy the opinions of the authors of the articles and studies you read.

[Pebble]

Unless you have first hand knowledge of the work they do, your internet based research will only get you so far and your opinion will be tainted buy the opinions of the authors of the articles and studies you read.

Please read Matt's parody above, and you will understand why this is a ridiculous approach.

Individual experiences are only sufficient to suggest that something may help or harm. It is never a substitute for properly conducted research, after all thousands of people swear by Vioxx, yet properly conducted research shows it kills people. Individual experiences alone could never have shown that.

Unless you aggregate the information and look for a net benefit over large numbers, you cannot say something works or dosen't. A failure to appreciate this means that you cannot use your skeptical faculties, so you only think you are being objective, when in reality you are taking an entirely subjective approach.

[Mojo]

My chiropractor has never once tried to tell me that there were no such things as germs, that traditional medical doctors have no use, that all illness is the result of subluxations, etc. He knows the value of the traditional medical practice and limits himself to spinal and joint issues only.

...

I think what you have are some holistic medicine types posing as chiropractors. The holistic medicine approach is rather quirky and I have seen no valid basis for their ideas, but I am not outright condemning them.

The people mentioned are, I admit, not chiropractors but osteopaths, but I can find plenty of examples of chiropractors in the UK who claim to be able to treat conditions other than "spinal and joint issues". There are claims on the British Chiropractic Association's website that chiropractic can treat, for example, asthma and ear infections.

[Mojo]

Would you consider an X-ray showing a misaligned vertebrae as scientific proof? I know I would.

For a subluxation according to the medical definition of the term, yes, but the chiropractic definition of the term is, to quote the WHO Guidelines on Basic Training and Safety in Chiropractic, "different from the current medical definition, in which subluxation is a significant structural displacement, and therefore visible on static imaging studies" (i.e. X-rays).

There is also the problem that chiropractors are seem to have trouble agreeing on the location of subluxations in a particular patient. See, for example the article Palpatory Literacy and the Subluxation Complex: Developing a Model to Represent What We Think We Feel from the Chiropractic Journal of Australia Volume 36, Number 4, December 2006, in which the authors appear to concede that the chiropractic subluxation is "an entity that is yet to be shown to exist".

The identification and correction of the putative spinal subluxation complex seems to lie at the heart of the identity of chiropractic, yet the clinical act of identifying the lesion continues to demonstrate low agreement.

[gsh341]

All I can say is that over the years I have used several different chiropractors and some were rather sketchy and were quickly discarded in favor of a more reputable chiropractor. I have seen the benefit in their particular area of expertise for non-invasive and quick relief from spinal and joint related problems.

If my chiropractor told me he could cure asthma or even the common cold, I'd have to seriously doubt him and would be looking for a new chiropractor.