baby bronchitis and massage

[tmplikeachilles]

Hello,

I'm new to this site. I live in France and have an 8 month old baby who presently has bronchitis. Our general practitioner has recommended going to see a "kinesitherapeute" who apparently massages the lungs to clear them out. I'm a bit wary because I know how bona fide medicine in France is mixed up with pseudoscience like homeopathy. I can't find anything on the web about this practice. Does it have any scientific credentials?

Any info appreciated!

[Matt]

Hello,

I'm new to this site. I live in France and have an 8 month old baby who presently has bronchitis. Our general practitioner has recommended going to see a "kinesitherapeute" who apparently massages the lungs to clear them out. I'm a bit wary because I know how bona fide medicine in France is mixed up with pseudoscience like homeopathy. I can't find anything on the web about this practice. Does it have any scientific credentials?

Any info appreciated!

Apparently that work simply tranlates as physiotherapst. http://dictionary.reverso.net/french...h%c3%a9rapeute

Having said that Google translate doesn't agree.

I was concerned that we might be delving into the realms of Applied Kinesiology though kinesiologist seems to translate to kinésiologue.

AP is definitiely bullshit. Physiotherapy may not be though depends what claims are being made about it. I'm not able to say whether or not it's an effective treatment for Bronchitis.

Massage isn't mentioned on the NHS treatment page for Bronchitis

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Bronchi...hat-is-it.aspx

[NorthernSoul]

Consider contacting a UK based GP to see whether massage is something they would suggest.

[OlderDad]

I have seen physios do "vibs" (vibrations) on adult patients. They place their hands on a patients lower ribs and shake the patient. They are then more able to clear secretions. Perhaps I have missed the point though.

[Trinoc]

Consider contacting a UK based GP to see whether massage is something they would suggest.

How would someone based in France contact a UK GP and expect a response? It's hard enough for UK residents to contact the GPs that they are registered with!

[Tammera]

if it is a kinesiologist, i have seen one a few times and she has done wonders for me and my daughter, i dont know how well it would work with bronchitis, but i guess it doesnt hurt to try.

[Matt]

if it is a kinesiologist, i have seen one a few times and she has done wonders for me and my daughter, i dont know how well it would work with bronchitis, but i guess it doesnt hurt to try.

It's amazing what a bit of care and attention can acheive. That's not to say that applied kinesiology is anything other than a placebo, it has no plausible mechanism nad no clinical data to back it.

Other than that I'm glad you've received some benefit during your experience.

[Tammera]

kinesiology and applied kinesiology, are two different things.
please expand on what you mean by "its amazing what a bit of care and attention can acheive".

[filippo lippi]

Someone pays you some attention, so you feel better. The woo that they do is neither here nor there.

[Tammera]

you dont know me or know my situation with the kinesiologist, so please dont insult me by suggesting i would recommend something, because someone made me feel better after someone gave me some attention, im not 5 years old.

[filippo lippi]

There's a clue in the name - scroll up, top left. And it wasn't an insult.

Lots of people go to see lots of "healers" and feel much better. I went to the physio about my knees, he told me it was muscular, I did some exercises and felt better.

Then I had an MRI scan on them. Shot to buggery with arthritis, with bits of bone floating around inside. Physio would never have helped, but I felt better after the treatments.

[niggle]

please dont insult me by suggesting i would recommend something, because someone made me feel better after someone gave me some attention, im not 5 years old.

I like that!



It's common amongst some who call themselves "skeptical" to assume, and to insinuate, that anyone disagreeing with them is stupid, weak-minded or deluded. This has the dual advantage of making them feel intelligent and special by comparison, and of removing the need for them to actually address what happened.

Since they weren't there, the only way to determnine that would be to ask you. But did anyone even ask you what the condition or even the treatment was? No, they just rushed to to the conclusion that you are unable to objectively examine events which happen to you.

So I hope you realise that although there are hasty judgements and unsupported assumptions here, you're not the one making them.

[Matt]

kinesiology and applied kinesiology, are two different things.
please expand on what you mean by "its amazing what a bit of care and attention can acheive".

So I see, my comments were directed at AK which I'm convinced is bunk. It seems that kinesiology is a different kettle of worms. I did assume that you were talking about AK since it seemed to be a response to me broaching that topic. If you were talking about kinesiology then without me knowing a lot more about that and of course what purpose you put it to I can't comment further.

you dont know me or know my situation with the kinesiologist, so please dont insult me by suggesting i would recommend something, because someone made me feel better after someone gave me some attention, im not 5 years old.

If only it were as simple as that.

Some people think that the placebo effect only relates to non-medicines. In fact it's always present. When you take antibiotics, headache tablets or decongestants at least part of the effect that you experience comes from your expectations. At least part of the effect that others percieve afterwards come from their expectations. We know this as a verified scientific fact. That's why treatements are tested by double blind clinical trials where neither the experimenter nor the patient know whether real or sham treatments are being applied. People receiving the sham treatment, in effect nothing more than a bit of care and attention, invariably have better outcomes than the control group of a three armed test. That's the people given no treatment at all, not even sham treatment. From tens of thousands of such studies we know that it's amazing what a little bit of care and attention can acheive and trust me it really is amazing. No on second thoughts don't trust me. Look it up for yourself you'll be even more amazed that way. It doesn't just work on 5 year olds, it's just as amazing how it affects full grown rational adults, even those with four years of medical schools and ten years research experience.

Really and truly a bit of care and attention can achieve wonders. That means that I can't make a judgement on the effect that kinesiology might have had based on the testimonial of a 5 year old, you and your daughter or even an MD with numerous advanced degrees and accrediations. I mean no offense by this. Had it been AK you were talking about then I'd already know that it's bunk, but apparenlty you're talking about something else. That means I don't know how plausible or implausible it might be that there's something more than a bit of care an attention, however just the knowledge that you were doing something, taking your destiny into your own hands, being listened to, sharing your experience and getting help and advice from someone sympathectic and trustworthy WILL most definitely have had an effect, and can quite possibly have had an amazing effect alone without there being anything more to it. If you were to tell me that you'd automatically know the difference then you'd be telling me that you're superior in this respect to every other human being on the planet.

Why not tell us a bit more about your experience with kinesiology and I can tell you how plausible it sounds to me.

[niggle]

In fact it's always present.

As a side note - I'll get back on topic in a jiff - I find the dicsussion of the placebo effect fascinating. It's a real and quantifiable effect all right, but I've already seen it appropriated several times on this forum as part of what i usually refer to as the Randi defense. This was James Randi's defense against those trying to win his one million dollar prize for proving something usually regarded as "supernatural" was real.

He put in place a clever argument which ensured that nobody could ever win the prize: if for instance a dowser was to correctly locate water in a field, he would say that the dowser had prior knowledge of the field. If the dowser showed that he had never visited the field, Randi would say that the dowser had subconsccious knowledge of the way land lies and therefore could not win the prize because although he thought he did not have prior knowledge, he actually did. This makes the prize impossible to claim as the Randi defense can be deployed against any evdience at all.

The placebo effect is often used in the same way: as a claim that someone who thinks a treatment works is wrong because subconsciously they are curing themselves. They may observe and report all the details, but they can always be dismissed by this reasoning. The common thread to look for is that Randi - or the accuser shouting placebo - never provide actual evidence that the claimed subconscious effect is happening: they expect their word to be taken over the claimant without question.

Why not tell us a bit more about your experience with kinesiology and I can tell you how plausible it sounds to me.

Now that's a step in the right direction: you're the first person on this thread who's actually asked to hear the evidence.

[NorthernSoul]

He put in place a clever argument which ensured that nobody could ever win the prize: if for instance a dowser was to correctly locate water in a field, he would say that the dowser had prior knowledge of the field. If the dowser showed that he had never visited the field, Randi would say that the dowser had subconsccious knowledge of the way land lies and therefore could not win the prize because although he thought he did not have prior knowledge, he actually did. This makes the prize impossible to claim as the Randi defense can be deployed against any evdience at all.

Niggle, again you have demonstrated complete ignorance. James Randi does not decide who wins the money, and the protocol is always designed to create objective results.