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Thread: I was a complete skeptic until ...

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    Re: I was a complete skeptic until ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SorryImPsychic View Post
    Blood flow increases between 1 and 5 seconds AFTER neural activity.(???)

    Please explain
    "Since the 1890s (Roy and Sherrington, 1890)[1] it has been known that changes in blood flow and blood oxygenation in the brain (collectively known as hemodynamics) are closely linked to neural activity. When nerve cells are active they consume oxygen carried by hemoglobin in red blood cells from local capillaries. The local response to this oxygen utilization is an increase in blood flow to regions of increased neural activity, occurring after a delay of approximately 1-5 seconds. This hemodynamic response rises to a peak over 4-5 seconds, before falling back to baseline (and typically undershooting slightly). This leads to local changes in the relative concentration of oxyhemoglobin and deoxyhemoglobin and changes in local cerebral blood volume in addition to this change in local cerebral blood flow."

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMRI

    It is a combination of blood flow and heart rate which determines how and if data will be processed. For example in a lesson, those who are interested in the subject will be awake and excited while those that are disinterested will be nearly comatose with boredom. Yet both types are receiving the same data. This level of boredom or interest can be determined and measured by cardiovascular activity? Furthermore blood test would show the neurochemicals introduced into the bloodstream of each type of student will be different and serve to modify and control neuronal activity even further.
    So boredom is controlled by the heart? Boredom, in the example you describe, is probably the default network state. Oddly, it involves more neural activity (and presumably greater blood flow) than goal orientated activity. Do you know of any evidence either way?

    Well consider reflex actions and how they are almost instantaneous in response to the activating stimuli and occur before any conscious realization. Or consider driving a car while having a discussion....you drive without any conscious effort yet are snapped into conscious effort when something startles you to attention.(heart pumps you to attention actually)
    Reflexes occur without conscious intervention via the spinal cord. You become aware of what happened afterwards. Even the unconscious brain is too slow to handle reflexes. As for the consciousness, remember I told you it is 1/10s behind sensory stimulus. Any 'rush of blood' you feel is the motor reactions moving muscles. Or do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

    "A reflex arc is the neural pathway that mediates a reflex action. In higher animals, most sensory neurons do not pass directly into the brain, but synapse in the spinal cord. This characteristic allows reflex actions to occur relatively quickly by activating spinal motor neurons without the delay of routing signals through the brain, although the brain will receive sensory input while the reflex action occurs. The main source of the reflex action is through the bottom muscles."

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc

    I am claiming that the whole cardiovascular system has a central role in consciousness, neuronal activity and data processing. The electrical activity of neural firings alone does not translate into consciousness and all that involves. (s.a. the qualia associated with the stimuli)
    That's probably because, like many philosophers, you put consciousness on a pedestal it really doesn't merit. As I said before, it's more of a monitoring station for the unconscious part of the brain, and to do long term planning.

    Can you be more specific about the role you see the cardiovascular system plays in data processing? Given that neurons are perfectly capable of performing rapid, high volume data processing, what part does blood play? If you imagine a computer, to me the brain is the cpu and memory while the blood is the power supply. Yes, you need the power supply for everything to work but you cannot process data without all those transistors. When data is being processed and stored, more power is used.

    You would need to accept that the heart is also a sensory organ.
    I might if there was some evidence for it.

    I hope you won't take this the wrong way but your model needs to start with the lab evidence.
    Last edited by Mulder; 28th March 2009 at 04:05 PM.

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