Please Help: I think Ive found God!

[getsfe]

Hi,

I've been a sceptic for many years but I've come a little unstuck. I need someone to point out the flaw in my logic before I go off the deep end and joint a church.

GOD

OK, so God is a being that has complete mastery over Time, Space and Matter. A being who can continue our Consciousness beyond our physical death. For the moment I've left aside the Creation of the Universe thing, but we can stick it back in if we want to later.

EVOLUTION

It seems that evolution is function of life. If we take life of earth as a model, life seems to evolve into an ever increasing levels of complexity. It has taken roughly 4 billion years for man to evolve from a single celled organism. The Universe is roughly 13 Billion years old, maybe that's enough time for other beings in other parts of the universe to evolve capacities which include Complete Mastery Over Time, Space and Matter? - in essence god-like beings.

TIME AND SPACE

We don't know how long the universe will actually last. The longer it lasts, the more chance of such a being has of evolving. The point is that if a being emerges that has Complete Mastery Over Time, Space and Matter AT ANY POINT IN SPACETIME, then God exists as this being will have the power to continue our concious existence beyond our physical death should they choose to do so, no matter at what point in spacetime we exist in physical life.

OPTIONAL - CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE

This bit is just wild speculation but if I didn't put it in some smart Alec would say "that's not god coz it didn't created the universe". OK if such a being exists in any universe it could also create other universes (including this one). If there are an infinite number of universes it is highly likely that a god-like being exists in at least one. If there is even just a single universe that exists for an infinite amount of time it is also highly likely that a god-like being will evolve.

CONCLUSION

God can only NOT exist if

a) Our universe is singular or part of a limited number of universes, and

b) All the universes that do exist do so for too short a period of time for a god-like being to emerge, or else all universes are physically constituted so as to prevent the emergence of god-like beings.

If neither A and B are true, it seems plausible that God exists. Shit!

[Mulder]

OK, so God is a being that has complete mastery over Time, Space and Matter. A being who can continue our Consciousness beyond our physical death. For the moment I've left aside the Creation of the Universe thing, but we can stick it back in if we want to later.

What do you understand by consciousness?

EVOLUTION It seems that evolution is function of life. If we take life of earth as a model, life seems to evolve into an ever increasing levels of complexity. It has taken roughly 4 billion years for man to evolve from a single celled organism. The Universe is roughly 13 Billion years old, maybe that's enough time for other beings in other parts of the universe to evolve capacities which include Complete Mastery Over Time, Space and Matter? - in essence god-like beings.

Life doesn't have a function. Evolution fills available ecological niches. If niches close, species become extinct. When our niche closes (which we're nicely doing ourselves) we too will become extinct. There is no 'direction' to evolution other than that given by our ecological environment.

We don't know how long the universe will actually last. The longer it lasts, the more chance of such a being has of evolving. The point is that if a being emerges that has Complete Mastery Over Time, Space and Matter AT ANY POINT IN SPACETIME, then God exists as this being will have the power to continue our concious existence beyond our physical death should they choose to do so, no matter at what point in spacetime we exist in physical life.

It is possible that alien species have evolved way beyond us but no obvious evidence of any intelligent interference in the universe at large. There are perfectly reasonable theories, supported by evidence, that this universe appeared without intelligent intervention.

God can only NOT exist if a) Our universe is singular or part of a limited number of universes, and b) All the universes that do exist do so for too short a period of time for a god-like being to emerge, or else all universes are physically constituted so as to prevent the emergence of god-like beings.If neither A and B are true, it seems plausible that God exists.

I don't understand (a) - whether there is one universe or many, why do you need divine intervention. Can you expand on that, please? Point (b) seems to rely on divine creatures evolving in a 'natural' universe. I thought the point of most religions was that the the divinity was around before the universe and created it.

[Trinoc]

God does not explain anything. Trying to explain the universe by postulating something even more complex separate from it only makes the problem worse. Is there an even greater god outside of the one we have already? And another outside of that, and so on?

You appear to have got yourself into philosophical knots. Pure thought and words will never tell you what the universe is really like ... you have to observe the actual evidence. There is no evidence for God, only gaps in our knowledge which people try to plug by saying "God did it", rather than admitting that there are, and always will be, things we don't know yet.

[skbuncks]

Hi,

I've been a sceptic for many years but I've come a little unstuck. I need someone to point out the flaw in my logic before I go off the deep end and joint a church.

snip.....

If neither A and B are true, it seems plausible that God exists. Shit!

No no no no and no. Your whole argument is based on one big fat false premise:

i.e. that it is even possible for a being with complete mastery over space, time and matter (whatever that is supposed to mean, as definitions go its a bit woolly) to exist.

skb

[Croydon Bob]

If neither A and B are true, it seems plausible that God exists. Shit!

It seems to me that the best you've managed is to show that 'gods' (not a god like the Christian 'God') might possibly exist. But that their existence has no obvious effect on us and our existence. You've come up with nothing that hasn't previously been suggested by philosophers and SF writers.

[getsfe]

Hi Mulder,

Sorry I can't do to quote thing!

Consciousness...self awareness...you know being aware that you exist, that sort of thing LOL

You say that "Evolution fills available ecological niches", thats a function! Don't confuse function with meaning. I am simply saying that evolution can go from simple life to complex life - that's why we call it evolution.

Divine Creatures Evolving - I don't like the term divine but essentially evolution provides a mechanism by which beings with command of time, space and matter could come into existence. Who created God is just a sceptics ruse to shut down the debate (believe me I've used it a time or two LOL). If evolution can create man it can also create beings more capable than man. The question is how far could evolution go given sufficient time and opportunity?

Hi Trinoc,

I am not trying to use God to explain the universe, I am simply asking is it possible for Beings with complete command of matter, space and time to exist. If so, how likely (or unlikely) is it that they will exist at some or any point in spacetime, again I think these are legitimate questions.

Hi Skbunks,

That's my question, is it possible?! If you don't think it is possible? why not?...that's the sort of stuff I need to know

Hi Croydon Bob,

Your right, this isn't about a Christian God. I don't know if this speculated being would want to get involved with my life or not. Just because a quark is disinterested in my existence does not mean that it does not exist. Again I am not trying to speculate on Gods meaning for mankind, merely the viability of Beings that the average guy on the street would describe as "god" if they met one in the local pub. You are right about the SF writers. These ideas are present is Asimov and Clark, I am not claiming any of these ideas as my own, simply that they are starting to spin me out philosophically speaking.

[Mulder]

You say that "Evolution fills available ecological niches", thats a function! Don't confuse function with meaning.

It's not a function of life to evolve. At its simplest, life could be defined as something that can autonomously reproduce itself. If there was a form of life stuck in a single ecological niche, it would never evolve. It would still reproduce, however. Reproduction is a function of life, not evolution.

I am simply saying that evolution can go from simple life to complex life - that's why we call it evolution.

It can go either way. It is entirely possible that life started once on Mars, when it a had a more favourable climate. As the climate deteriorated, any life would have evolved towards simpler forms and maybe eventually become extinct completely. Just before the Earth is swallowed by the Sun, any remaining life here will suffer the same fate. There is nothing inevitable about increasing complexity in evolution.

Divine Creatures Evolving - I don't like the term divine but essentially evolution provides a mechanism by which beings with command of time, space and matter could come into existence. Who created God is just a sceptics ruse to shut down the debate (believe me I've used it a time or two LOL). If evolution can create man it can also create beings more capable than man. The question is how far could evolution go given sufficient time and opportunity?

In your model, an original universe starts up first (how?) and then evolves creatures capable of creating new universes. So, the question isn't 'who created god?' It's who, or what, created the original universe? The second question becomes, what evidence is there of intelligent intervention in this universe?

[getsfe]

In your model, an original universe starts up first (how?) and then evolves creatures capable of creating new universes. So, the question isn't 'who created god?' It's who, or what, created the original universe? The second question becomes, what evidence is there of intelligent intervention in this universe?

Yippee...Ive worked out how to quote! The start of that paragraph said "this is speculation" so I'd like to move this on from the "who made God" argument, its never going to get anywhere, I don't really care who made god or even if god exists "now", what I am interested in is whether evolution is a mechanism that could (not will, COULD) create intelligent creatures capable of commanding time, space and matter. If it can, what time-scale would be required for such beings to evolve, and could the universe last long enough for such beings to evolve?

[Tim the Mage]

To accept your argument requires:

1) A new definition of 'god' or 'gods' (or divine, if you prefer)
2) A view that evolution continues

On the former - gods may have mastery of time, space and matter but that is not what makes them gods. Creation of something from nothing (i.e. creation) is closer to the function.

On the latter, as rates of fertility decline evolution slows since it requires reproduction and the likelihood of change is reduced. Those approaching control of time have no need to reproduce and will stop evolving. So they never become 'gods' any way.

[Matt]

The hidden assumption here is that it's possible for a being to have complete mastery over time and space.

Even if that is true would there be only one and if not then how can two omnipotent beings exist in the same universe - what happens when the irresistible force meets immovable object?

Omnipotence raises some interesting paradoxes. Can an omnipotent being create a rock so heavy that it can't lift it, or microwave a burrito so hot they cannot eat it. A simple redefinition of omnipotent such that the being is as powerful as it's possible to be whilst still bound by the rules of logic is felt by some to sidestep this issue.

Then there's the matter of your definition falling somewhat short of the Theists definition of God.

Is there any reason to believe such a being would be omnibenevolent? The theists insist that their God amongst other things a perfect expression of love. The paradox of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being allowing suffering on the scale that we see in this world can be troubling. Many are not satisfied by the suggestion that it's all part of god ineffable plan and he's moving in mysterious ways. Free will is often cited.

Is there any reason to believe that such a being would be omniscient? Certainly with complete mastery over space and time it would be possible for such a being to attain any knowledge they desired but would it be possible to store all such knowledge or to process it in any meaningful way. What's more if such a being did know absolutely everything including the future then what does that say for free will?

You’re comparing the infinite set of things it’s possible to know through all possible histories with an infinite set describing the capability of a being to know things. Do you have a way of saying whether one infinity has a higher cardinality than another?

Is there any reason to believe that such a being would be omnipresent? Certainly with complete mastery over space and time it would be possible for such a being to have a presence anywhere they desired but would it be possible for them to have a presence everywhere simultaneously at all times, indeed all through all possible histories?

You’re comparing the infinite set of locations possible throughout all possible histories with an infinite set describing the capability of a being to locate itself. Do you have a way of saying whether one infinity has a higher cardinality than another?

Would such a being hold mankind in special regard, what motivation would they have to somehow allow our consciousness to persist for eternity, whilst ignoring the consciousnesses of our close relatives the chimpanzee. What reason could they have for dictating arbitrary morals such as respecting your father and mother (even if you were born of rape or abused) and worshiping a particular god who refuses to reveal himself? Having done so, why would they reward or punish behavior for eternity?

It sounds to me like your argument bears certain similarities to Nick Bostrom's ancestor simulation agreement where you've chosen to regard the programmer(s) as God. It might make for a worthwhile apologia for deism but not theism.

[skbuncks]

Yippee...Ive worked out how to quote! The start of that paragraph said "this is speculation" so I'd like to move this on from the "who made God" argument, its never going to get anywhere, I don't really care who made god or even if god exists "now", what I am interested in is whether evolution is a mechanism that could (not will, COULD) create intelligent creatures capable of commanding time, space and matter. If it can, what time-scale would be required for such beings to evolve, and could the universe last long enough for such beings to evolve?

First things first, we need to determine what you mean by 'commanding space, time and matter'.

Evolution itself works through the natural selection of random allele mutations which confer traits upon a subset of a species that enable it to to exploit either a niche in the environment or to cope with some form of environmental change.
Assuming its possible (and excluding artificial gentic manipulation), in order for the 'command of space, time and matter' to evolve there would have to be some form of reproductive advantage to having these powers.

skb

[polomint38]

I am not trying to use God to explain the universe, I am simply asking is it possible for Beings with complete command of matter, space and time to exist. If so, how likely (or unlikely) is it that they will exist at some or any point in spacetime, again I think these are legitimate questions.

I have heard somewhere (not sure where) that someone will make known there magic power , YES magic power before the 14 May 2009

buy commanding matter, time and space to move my teacup

PS I've been licking the toads again

homertoad.jpg

[skbuncks]

I have heard somewhere (not sure where) that someone will make known there magic power , YES magic power before the 14 May 2009

buy commanding matter, time and space to move my teacup

PS I've been licking the toads again

homertoad.jpg

..ahhh but that particular person trolieves he is the anti-christ. Quite why the anti-christ would have such a fixation with crookery is anyones guess.

skb

[Mulder]

Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. That sounds like a description of the universe itself. Maybe it's alive ...

[getsfe]

The hidden assumption here is that it's possible for a being to have complete mastery over time and space.

Even if that is true would there be only one and if not then how can two omnipotent beings exist in the same universe - what happens when the irresistible force meets immovable object?

Omnipotence raises some interesting paradoxes. Can an omnipotent being create a rock so heavy that it can't lift it, or microwave a burrito so hot they cannot eat it. A simple redefinition of omnipotent such that the being is as powerful as it's possible to be whilst still bound by the rules of logic is felt by some to sidestep this issue.

Then there's the matter of your definition falling somewhat short of the Theists definition of God.

Is there any reason to believe such a being would be omnibenevolent? The theists insist that their God amongst other things a perfect expression of love. The paradox of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being allowing suffering on the scale that we see in this world can be troubling. Many are not satisfied by the suggestion that it's all part of god ineffable plan and he's moving in mysterious ways. Free will is often cited.

Is there any reason to believe that such a being would be omniscient? Certainly with complete mastery over space and time it would be possible for such a being to attain any knowledge they desired but would it be possible to store all such knowledge or to process it in any meaningful way. What's more if such a being did know absolutely everything including the future then what does that say for free will?

You’re comparing the infinite set of things it’s possible to know through all possible histories with an infinite set describing the capability of a being to know things. Do you have a way of saying whether one infinity has a higher cardinality than another?

Is there any reason to believe that such a being would be omnipresent? Certainly with complete mastery over space and time it would be possible for such a being to have a presence anywhere they desired but would it be possible for them to have a presence everywhere simultaneously at all times, indeed all through all possible histories?

You’re comparing the infinite set of locations possible throughout all possible histories with an infinite set describing the capability of a being to locate itself. Do you have a way of saying whether one infinity has a higher cardinality than another?

Would such a being hold mankind in special regard, what motivation would they have to somehow allow our consciousness to persist for eternity, whilst ignoring the consciousnesses of our close relatives the chimpanzee. What reason could they have for dictating arbitrary morals such as respecting your father and mother (even if you were born of rape or abused) and worshiping a particular god who refuses to reveal himself? Having done so, why would they reward or punish behavior for eternity?

It sounds to me like your argument bears certain similarities to Nick Bostrom's ancestor simulation agreement where you've chosen to regard the programmer(s) as God. It might make for a worthwhile apologia for deism but not theism.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply, that's really interesting.

The assumption isn't hidden, it is the central question I am asking: would it be theoretically possible for an entity to travel in time and space and generally muck about with the laws of physics. If not, phew! If it is, surely whether this being will exist at some point is determined by the length of time of the universe will continue to exist, the older the universe gets the more likely it is to produce the improbable. IF such a being is possible I would personally regard it as god-like, even if its name was Sheila and it lived next door! Ultimately whether the universe can create a god-like being is down to whether any part of it is sufficiently large or multifarious to create a being that can supersede our known laws of physics? I am a simple minded sort of fellow - what am I missing here?