Secularism wins again

[Pebble]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00hkprf


Good stuff on the moral maze today, the floor was wiped with Melanie Phillips.

[ChrisCuba]

Based on this show I would seriously suggest Evan Harris for Prime Minister. Even Michael Portillo sounded extremely sensible and there was clearly a highly supportive audience as well.
Alistair McGrath who wrote the anti Dawkins book sounded like a complete idiot and did nothing for his case.

Accepting I am biased the God side does seem to be struggling to come up with even interesting people lately let alone intelligent ones. The only card they seem to have left to play and they play it strongly is authority. Hopefully that will be undermined if we can have some people in positions of power who are willing to stand and state their atheism.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

My theory is that they are stuck in this position, because they tell their followers what they want to hear, and of course it's all based on the fact they believe the same things. They are stuck in a feedback loop where the only feedback they listen to is that from within their own community. They aren't interested in listening to rational debate because they think the rational people are just plain wrong.

The arguments are starting to look more and more stupid, and you are right, they are unable to promote clear and sensible thinkers from within. But then, that is what happens when everything you believe is pretty much fairy tales anyway.

Hence we also have all this "persecuted christians" nonsense at the moment - a failure to be able to argue against a rational viewpoint means they have to resort to the role of victim.

[Mulder]

Even Michael Portillo sounded extremely sensible and there was clearly a highly supportive audience as well.

It's funny how ex-politicians always sound more sensible than politicians ...

[Mulder]

Hence we also have all this "persecuted christians" nonsense at the moment - a failure to be able to argue against a rational viewpoint means they have to resort to the role of victim.

When I was a kid, atheists were considered truly weird and shocking, if they were considered at all. Most adults seemed to accept the the Bible was history and the existence of a god, fact. The main reasons were social pressure and lack of alternative information.

Of course, the information that undermined religions was around but generally only in academia and dull-looking books on the dustier shelves of bookshops. Now you can go on the internet and be disabused of all your religious indoctrination in hours! It is little wonder Christians feel "persecuted" with all that useful information easily available.

[polomint38]

It's funny how ex-politicians always sound more sensible than politicians ...

Three words

Robert Kilroy Silk

[Trinoc]

Three words

Robert Kilroy Silk

Nobody said all ex-politicians!

Anyway, RKS was already a prat before going into politics, so he simply reverted to type.

Is he an ex-politician, or is he just "between election attempts", to paraphrase the actor's euphemism?

Right-wing ex-politicians tend to moderate their ideas when exposed to the real world ... Portillo, Matthew Paris, for example. Left-wing politicians tend to go the other way ... start out as socialist firebrands dedicated to liberty, and end up like Jack Straw, Harriet Harman or David (Lord) Triesman.

[Matt]

He's currently an Independent MEP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...ndependent_MEP

[Croydon Bob]

He's currently an Independent MEP</p>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...ndependent_MEP

He's also a skeptic and an atheist.

[Tony Williams]

He's also a skeptic and an atheist.

That's odd - I had the impression that he believed that he was God. Or at least the Chosen One.

[Dubious Dick]

Just had a listen. Very unsatisfactory debate really. So short and so many people involved that it really just ends up as a lot of soundbites strung together.

Still, I loved the bit where Phillips says something along the lines of " Let's not get into history..." when the historical fact that morality and moral codes were developed prior to Christ effectively destroyed her argument.

It's also great when the Bish falls back on the Bible. They just can't seem to get what a flawed and contradictory old tome it is.

Seems a shame that so much of the debate revolved around homosexuality. Important though non-dsicrimination against homosexuals is.

As for Portillo, seems his Damascene conversion from Maggie worship came when he was outed as having done a bit of shirtlifting. All of a sudden he came over all humanitarian.

[Croydon Bob]

That's odd - I had the impression that he believed that he was God. Or at least the Chosen One.

Perhaps that's why he doesn't believe in any of the other gods? I'm not saying that he isn't vile, but he's one of us.

[Trinoc]

Perhaps that's why he doesn't believe in any of the other gods? I'm not saying that he isn't vile, but he's one of us.

Only in the sense that a US tele-evangelist preacher like Pat Robertson is in the same group as a Salvation Army lady running a soup kitchen for the homeless ... which isn't much.

[filippo lippi]

He's currently an Independent MEP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...ndependent_MEP

Not serving the people of the East Midlands very well, he hardly ever turns up.