Is religion a delusion?

[Dr B]

This is the confusion John and I talk about above - we are not born believing in God - but we are born with brains that use heuristics to bias perception and reason which can lead to fallacy and error (one of which is religious thinking).

It's an important distinction. 8)

[SorryImPsychic]

we are not born believing in God 8)

No we are not born believing in God BUT for the human "Religion" has been the most pervasive and persistent force.....if you think about it Religion is probably the first of human inventions.

[Dr B]

No we are not born believing in God BUT for the human "Religion" has been the most pervasive and persistent force.....if you think about it Religion is probably the first of human inventions.

it is definately based in primal / ancient thinking and not in rational thinking that is for sure.

[Trinoc]

it is definately based in primal / ancient thinking and not in rational thinking that is for sure.

Is it really ancient thinking? Could it not simply be a case of extending the first view a baby has of the world - that everything is provided and controlled by an external being (i.e. mother) - to apply to the world as a whole. The simplest solution is surely to make sure a child is introduced to viewing the world rationally as soon as it is able to comprehend the world at all, rather than telling fairy tales.

[Dr B]

Is it really ancient thinking?

Yes - its a form of bastardised causal reasoning gone wrong. The nature of the resulting delusions varies greatly around the world - but its all an example of a fast and dirty heuristic dominated form of reasoning.

[Trinoc]

Yes - its a form of bastardised causal reasoning gone wrong. The nature of the resulting delusions varies greatly around the world - but its all an example of a fast and dirty heuristic dominated form of reasoning.

I suppose I didn't mean I thought it was not ancient - it's been around as long as babies have existed - but that it was not a throw-back to ancient beliefs, rather that it is a way of thinking that happens afresh all of the time, and that we all go through in the first parts of our lives. It's just that a lot of people are encouraged never to grow out of it.

[Mulder]

Yes - its a form of bastardised causal reasoning gone wrong. The nature of the resulting delusions varies greatly around the world - but its all an example of a fast and dirty heuristic dominated form of reasoning.

Is heuristic your word of the month? I must admit, I rather like it too ...

[Dr B]

Trinoc

I dont think you've understood my point. Most current theories argue that we have two basic forms of reasoning processes in the brain.

One is fast and dirty - based on rules of thumb and heuristics. This can lead to error in reason (while in some contexts there can be benefits).

One is slower, and more considered - this leads to more rational thinking.

The argument goes that the latter one was not fully formed or did not have the information required with which to operate correctly.

Ancient people predominately used the first system to explain their observations as its all they had with which to understand the world.

[Dr B]

Is heuristic your word of the month? I must admit, I rather like it too ...

Loads of good research in that field.

[SorryImPsychic]

One is fast and dirty - based on rules of thumb and heuristics. This can lead to error in reason (while in some contexts there can be benefits).

One is slower, and more considered - this leads to more rational thinking.

The argument goes that the latter one was not fully formed or did not have the information required with which to operate correctly.

Ancient people predominately used the first system to explain their observations as its all they had with which to understand the world.

You argue that it was lower level of cognitive development which contributed to the emergence of religious thinking and I guess it is this level on which this thinking continues to exist.

However, Religion has proved to be man's greatest evolutionary tool - it causes conflict and conflict is what really gets our brain firing at optimum speed.

Religion -> to conflict -> to warfare - and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

Religion will only reach its Use-By Date when the human (if humanly possible) is ready to turn their weapons into plowshares. OR if the human needs to escape this Earth we will have the technology to do so. We never would have reached this point of development if we were sans Religion and all standing around chewing the cud so to speak.

[chaggle]

Religion -> to conflict -> to warfare - and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

Religion is a GOOD THING because it leads to warfare? Now I've heard it all!

[Tony Williams]

However, Religion has proved to be man's greatest evolutionary tool - it causes conflict and conflict is what really gets our brain firing at optimum speed.

Religion -> to conflict -> to warfare - and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

Religion will only reach its Use-By Date when the human (if humanly possible) is ready to turn their weapons into plowshares. OR if the human needs to escape this Earth we will have the technology to do so. We never would have reached this point of development if we were sans Religion and all standing around chewing the cud so to speak.

Religious conflict is an issue now, and has been at various times in the past. But conflicts happen for other reasons apart from religion.

The greatest war of all time was fought between 1939 and 1945, and religion played no part in its causes: it was basically about Germany and Japan trying to increase their importance by conquering other countries. The same applied to the other great conflict of the century, from 1914 to 1918; that was about rivalries between empires, every major country involved was Christian. And the Cold War from 1945-1990 was about two different approaches to socio-economic organisation: capitalism and communism.

Humanity does not need religion as an excuse for conflict. That happened the first time Stone Age men fought over a carcass or access to a waterhole, or just because members of another tribe were different and threatening, and that (greatly scaled up) has motivated conflicts ever since.

[Dr B]

You argue that it was lower level of cognitive development which contributed to the emergence of religious thinking and I guess it is this level on which this thinking continues to exist.

However, Religion has proved to be man's greatest evolutionary tool - it causes conflict and conflict is what really gets our brain firing at optimum speed.

Religion -> to conflict -> to warfare - and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

Religion will only reach its Use-By Date when the human (if humanly possible) is ready to turn their weapons into plowshares. OR if the human needs to escape this Earth we will have the technology to do so. We never would have reached this point of development if we were sans Religion and all standing around chewing the cud so to speak.

This is ridiculous nonsense - the other posters have beaten me to it - but let us be clear - ridiculous....

Religion serves no survival value to the species per-se - though as we started to operate as cohesive social groups there may have been a need to adopt 'similar beliefs' (though not necessarily in the real sense) in order to obstain and maintain group membership.

However, it is likely that being a good hunter (for example) was a bigger plus....

[tolman]

if you think about it Religion is probably the first of human inventions.

That seems extremely hard to support, unless you make a deliberate choice to define 'human' as happening just at the point where language had developed to the point where people could explain/enforce religion on other people, and relegate any previous inventions (tools, fire?), etc to being pre-human ones.

It's difficult to see how religion could have come before such human inventions as stories told to keep the children in line.

[SorryImPsychic]

Religion is a GOOD THING because it leads to warfare? Now I've heard it all!

No - you have not heard it all! I said:

Religion -> to conflict -> to warfare - and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

Note: and warfare leads to technological development and scientific advance = Survival.

So as an evolutionary tool (amoral - not good or bad) Religion has served to drive science and technological advance.