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Thread: Creationism and swine flu

  1. #1

    Creationism and swine flu

    Does anyone know what creationists think about genetic mutations? Presumably they can hardly deny that they happen. Just not so much as to actually create a new species.

    The current swine flu outbreak, which now allows the virus to jump from human to human, no pigs required, is surely a beneficial mutation for the virus (if not for its host). Humans are a better host because they are spread so much more evenly acros the world - not stuck on isolated farms! Swine fever will now spread more widely and quicker than it ever could in pigs. Doesn't this look a bit like natural selection in action?

  2. #2

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    I think they are against vacines so would they accept a flu vacine, there seems to be a mistrust of science and medicine amongst some of the fundimentalist "If t'aint in the bible" this would be a worry as this could see the return of many diseases once thought to be wiped out.

  3. #3

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Does anyone know what creationists think about genetic mutations? Presumably they can hardly deny that they happen. Just not so much as to actually create a new species.
    No, I don't know what they are thinking, but it's a good point.

    Maybe they think the mutation was made by the big creator.
    Last edited by Imox; 1st May 2009 at 05:18 PM.

  4. #4
    Hero member polomint38's Avatar
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    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Does anyone know what creationists think about genetic mutations? Presumably they can hardly deny that they happen. Just not so much as to actually create a new species.

    The current swine flu outbreak, which now allows the virus to jump from human to human, no pigs required, is surely a beneficial mutation for the virus (if not for its host). Humans are a better host because they are spread so much more evenly acros the world - not stuck on isolated farms! Swine fever will now spread more widely and quicker than it ever could in pigs. Doesn't this look a bit like natural selection in action?
    Creationists think, really, evolution must be setting in, in a few thousand years they may catch up with the rest if us.
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    Hero member Matt's Avatar
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    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Does anyone know what creationists think about genetic mutations? Presumably they can hardly deny that they happen. Just not so much as to actually create a new species.
    According to AiG even new species are permitted to evolution just not new "kinds" Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baraminology

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    The current swine flu outbreak, which now allows the virus to jump from human to human, no pigs required, is surely a beneficial mutation for the virus (if not for its host). Humans are a better host because they are spread so much more evenly acros the world - not stuck on isolated farms! Swine fever will now spread more widely and quicker than it ever could in pigs. Doesn't this look a bit like natural selection in action?
    A little bit. What we're most hopeful for is that exceedingly virulent strains will be selected against due to incapacitating the host before allowing widespread dispesal of the virus. However we must rember that natural selection is statistical. Whilst it's more likely for the benficial mutation to predominate there's no guarentee.

  6. #6
    Hero member Matt's Avatar
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    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by lost thought View Post
    I think they are against vacines so would they accept a flu vacine, there seems to be a mistrust of science and medicine amongst some of the fundimentalist "If t'aint in the bible" this would be a worry as this could see the return of many diseases once thought to be wiped out.
    I don't think there's anything in the bible prohibitting vacines. It owuld be remarkably precient if there were.

    However those anti vaxxers who wish to avoid the mandatory schedule for childhood vaccines can only do so under US law, through claiming religious exemption.

  7. #7

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    What's the difference of an exemption and an exception?

  8. #8

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    According to AiG even new species are permitted to evolution just not new "kinds".
    I noticed that last time I went to a Creationist talk. They seem to be seriously backtracking while trying to keep an ever-diminishing part of the creation of life exclusively for God. I suppose as long as there is the tiniest area that hasn't been fully explained by genetics they will cling to it, and even when that goes they will tell us that God was necessary to create genetics in the first place.

    So, if a virus can only mutate from a virus of the same "kind", presumably that means God created AIDS to make people suffer. I can understand him wanting to punish gays and fornicators - he's nasty like that - but what about all of the "ordinary" people in Africa, not to mention the apes who had it before that?
    Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

  9. #9

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    That's a little bit the disaster of the scientists. They'll never be able to explain everything totally. And even if they could, the creationist wouldn't understand the matter. No single human can understand and explain the whole biology. And cause the creationist don't read serious books they'll anyway never have a chance to understand.

  10. #10

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    The bottom line I've heard from some creationists is that, OK, almost everything may have evolved, but humans didn't!

    What they can't seem to stomach is the notion that we evolved from animals. That's always been the primary visceral objection since evolution was first proposed, and everything else kind of built up in support of that.
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    Senior Member newatheist's Avatar
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    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5-Y08qbjo
    How many of these people are there in America?
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  12. #12
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    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by newatheist View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5-Y08qbjo
    How many of these people are there in America?
    While one might object to his selective interpretation of statistics and the reliance on 30 year old data to criticize vaccination, I suspect that worrying about homeland security getting involved in health-scares is very reasonable given their track record for measured responses.
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. Voltaire

  13. #13

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Does anyone know what creationists think about genetic mutations? Presumably they can hardly deny that they happen. Just not so much as to actually create a new species.

    .......Doesn't this look a bit like natural selection in action?
    A view from the Intelligent Design camp:


    « Jerry Coyne vs. NCSE, AAAS, & NAS
    | Main
    Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution

    A few years ago, the media was abuzz over the scare of the avian flu virus, which led me to write a post titled Avian Flu: An Example of Evolution?. At the time, it wasn't clear whether the avian flu would evolve and "jump" into a highly virulent form that easily infected humans. Had the avian flu virus made the jump, then we would have witnessed a sort of evolution where viruses swap genetic material in a process known as "reassortment" and can then more easily infect new hosts, such as humans. As I explained at that time:
    So our fight to combat the Avian flu is undoubtedly a fight against evolution. The question is, has there been a net increase in genetic information through this "evolution"? The Avian flu is essentially the swapping of genes--but its genes probably came from other pre-existing viruses.
    If you've read the news lately, you're aware that many are presently concerned about the threat from the swine flu virus. In this case, we're looking at precisely the same type of evolution: As an article on Physorg.com explains, this new virus has bird, pig and human components:
    Pigs are well-known crucibles for mixing viruses, able to harbour strains of flu that normally are specific to pigs, birds and humans. When present in the same animal, these viruses are able to swap genes as they replicate, which can result in a new strain and leap the species barrier to humans.
    At best, the origin of this new swine flu virus represents a virus that is composed of pre-existing genes that have been swapped into a new "mixture" in the swine flu virus. This is of course "evolution," when we understand evolution as "change over time," but it involves the origin of no new genes. After All This "Evolution," It's Still a Virus
    In his 2007 book The Edge of Evolution, Michael Behe observed that after our attempts to kill disease-causing bacteria and viruses, some can evolve via Darwinian selection to evade our disease-fighting strategies. Yet despite this evolution, they remain bacteria and viruses — with very little net change. As Behe writes:
    Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use. (Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162)
    Similarly, we wrote in response to David Hillis that the evolution of certain influenza viruses entails a trivial degree of evolution:
    To further show the alleged utility of evolution, Hillis discussed how mutations in one particular protein of the influenza virus allow it to escape detection by our immune system, stating “phylogenetic analysis … is a critical tool for developing flu vaccines every year,” and asserting that “knowledge of evolution helps millions of human lives be saved every year.” While there is no doubt that influenza “evolution” is a real phenomenon, we must ask the crucial questions: What degree of evolution is this? And can this sort of “evolution” be legitimately extrapolated to explain large-scale evolutionary changes? In other words, if we were teaching students about this type of “evolution,” should we teach them that it implies large scale macroevolutionary change that could explain the origin of complex biological features, such as new body plans?

    The answer is clearly no. The truth is that the mutations in the hemagglutinin molecule testified about by Dr. Hills represent small-scale changes in a limited number of amino acids in one domain of the protein that do not change the virus’s function for this protein (it resides on the surface of viruses and its function is to bind the flu virus to the infected cell).3 Nothing in Dr. Hillis’s comments alters the fact that the flu virus remains a virtually identical virus after the microevolutionary changes he describes. Lives may be saved by studying functionally trivial amino acid changes in this protein, but it is not due to knowledge of any kind of evolution that can explain the origin of new species or body plans. An Analysis of the Expert Testimony of Prof. David Hillis before the Texas State Board of Education on January 21, 2009
    Indeed, as soon as one's immune system produces an antibody that can successfully target the hemagglutinin molecule in a flu virus, that virus can be effectively targeted by its host. Because it is readily recognized by our immune system, there is a tremendous amount of selection pressure on the hemagglutinin protein that makes it a huge liability to the virus. The cat-and-mouse game between the adaptive immune systems of higher vertebrates and viral hemagglutinin proteins has been going on for near-countless generations. If viruses could function without the hemagglutinin protein, evolution would have jettisoned it long ago. Long, long ago. But it hasn't. There are limits to evolution, and we see that in constraints upon viral evolution.

    And it's a good thing that there are limits to evolution, because our flu-fighting strategies rely on it remaining a flu virus. This allows preventative measures that work to be implemented, vaccines to be developed using standard flu virus culture techniques in eggs and the treatment of patients suffering from infection with drugs like Tamiflu. In other words, the incredibly trivial changes that Dr. Hillis was commenting on are of some significance, but clearly don’t make the point he was trying to make: We rely on the limits of evolutionary processes to fight the flu, not the purported ability of evolution to generate new biological features. The Evolutionary Origin of Viruses? "Forever Obscure"
    Evolution appears tightly constrained, yet we see a suite of complicated micro-killers like viruses. How did viruses arise in the first place? After reviewing some of the speculative, vague, and detail-free ideas about how viruses might have arisen, an article in Scientific American admitted last year, "At the end of the day, however, despite all of their common features and unique abilities to copy and spread their genomes, the origins of most viruses may remain forever obscure."
    Let's just hope that a cure for the swine flu virus is less obscure than its ultimate origin.
    Don't tase me, Bro!

  14. #14

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    [QUOTE=SorryImPsychic;61239]

    CORRECTION:


    The above quote incorporates Intelligent Design views but written by Evolutionist.

    Forget those guys though: Viruses have always know exactly what they have to so to survive.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0501154143.htm
    Don't tase me, Bro!

  15. #15

    Re: Creationism and swine flu

    Quote Originally Posted by polomint38 View Post
    Creationists think...
    ...are two words that should not appear together in the same sentence.
    "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

    I keep getting this terrible feeling of deja woo.

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