Religion in the USA

[Graham Lappin]

As you know I am a Brit living, for the time being at least, in the USA. There are many differences between the two countries but one thing that has interested me in particular is the attitude to religion.

For example, it is quite common for people to say grace over a meal openly, in public, in a restaurant. I have even seen the waiter stand by the table with head bowed. Churches, of one denomination or another, are everywhere and church going in many areas of the US is just taken for granted.

And yet the US was founded on the separation of religion and Government. In the UK the Queen is head of state and church - perhaps you could argue only a figurehead but nevertheless the link is something unfathomable in the US.

I ponder as to why a country that has taken the effort to separate state and religion then ends up so religious - and predominately christian (of one form or another).

[chaggle]

I have been told that one reason for this is the lack of pubs and pub culture - no seriously!

I was told this by an American chap I met who was, um, pastor I suppose of a non-religious church in California. It was a place where like-minded people could gather and do - well - I don't know what really. He led them in this activity. He, quite seriously, reckoned that churchgoing was used in the same way as Brits might go to the local pub - presumably without the booze.

[Graham Lappin]

I have been told that one reason for this is the lack of pubs and pub culture - no seriously!

.... churchgoing was used in the same way as Brits might go to the local pub - presumably without the booze.

It is possible I think but probably more so in the mid-west "Bible belt". I observed the saying of grace in a restaurant in Washington DC and there is no shortage of pubs and bars there ("Real English Pub with Fish and Chips...").

[Harryprice]

Isn't the religiousity supposed to be the result of many early European settlers fleeing from religious persecution in their home countries? The Pilgrim Fathers weren't exactly atheist ...

[Graham Lappin]

Isn't the religiousity supposed to be the result of many early European settlers fleeing from religious persecution in their home countries? The Pilgrim Fathers weren't exactly atheist ...

Very true but that's a long time ago and there was religious persecution in Europe as well. It seems as though separating religion and state has resulting in an "over-steer" reaction.

Tomorrow (Thursday 26th Nov) is Thanksgiving in the US. It's a time when Americans overeat (more than usual) and just before Christmas, when they do it all over again.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

I'd always understood that some at least of the settlers were fleeing not from intolerance and persecution but towards it — in the congenial form where they were doing rather than done unto:
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/...eId-25010.html

Mind you, I expect to be told that it's a wicked lie.

[Tony Williams]

From what I can gather, the early religious history of the USA is not what most Americans believe.

Yes, the Lord is right - the early settlers were often motivated by wanting to follow their own religious practices free from persecution. When the US Constitution was drawn up, religion was a thorny question and it was eventually decided to make the state non-religious (ha!) as a way of protecting the interests all of the various sects.

Many of the "founding fathers" were not Christians in the modern sense, their beliefs would probably get them thrown out of US churches today. Jefferson even produced his own version of the Bible, with bits he didn't like (such as miracles - including the resurrection) cut out.

There seems to be a curious parallel between the Bible Belt and the Muslim world (although I am sure that neither would thank me for the comparison). In both cases, although presumably for different reasons, people have turned back to a more fundamentalist view of religion, as a kind of rejection of at least some aspects of the modern world.

[Floppit]

And yet the US was founded on the separation of religion and Government. In the UK the Queen is head of state and church - perhaps you could argue only a figurehead but nevertheless the link is something unfathomable in the US.

As someone who would like to see a more secular world this is the bit that worries me. There are too many variables to pull any single one out, but I worry that it is at least plausible that once told to separate religion and state, the dictate actually does more to entrench personal religious beliefs as people go into a 'battle mode'. I think group belonging is a powerful force as we are group animals, I think that our perceptions and defensiveness when we perceive attack on 'ours' are in large part innate.

[Cuddles]

And yet the US was founded on the separation of religion and Government. In the UK the Queen is head of state and church - perhaps you could argue only a figurehead but nevertheless the link is something unfathomable in the US.

I think this may actually be one of the main causes. In the UK, religion isn't really something you need to think about. Unless you choose to belong to a specific religion, you're generally assumed to be CofE by default. You don't need to fight for it or express your beliefs in any way because religion is already enshrined in the constitution.

In America, on the other hand, it's the exact opposite. If you don't explicitly express yourself as religious, there's nothing to connect you to any religion at all. Since the majority of people appear to be religious, even if only in a fairly minor non-evangelical way, that may well have encouraged people to generally express their faith themselves, since they don't have the country doing it for them.

[Graham Lappin]

Don't consider the US as too homogeneous. The two coast lines, West and East are different places to the middle of the country. Religious belief does prevail virtually everywhere you go and I have met very few Americans that openly admit they are atheist (mostly, in fact, at the New York Skeptics meeting hosted by Steve Novella a few months back). The coast lines, for whatever reason, are more questioning however, and they will openly talk about issues with organised religions.

In the mid west and to some extent the South, it's a different story. There, for the sake of my health, I tend to keep my mouth shut.

[panama]

I think this may actually be one of the main causes. In the UK, religion isn't really something you need to think about. Unless you choose to belong to a specific religion, you're generally assumed to be CofE by default. You don't need to fight for it or express your beliefs in any way because religion is already enshrined in the constitution.

Only in England & Wales, where it is the established church. In Scotland the assumption is Church of Scotland.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

In Northern Ireland you make no assumptions. You ask what school they went to

[Graham Lappin]

In Northern Ireland you make no assumptions. You ask what school they went to

My wife is a catholic from Northern Ireland and so I wonder how I could have forgotten that one.

The religious situation in Northern Ireland however, is a fairly clear consequence of it's history (although somewhat re-written, I accept). With the US it's just not so clear to me why such a country that prima facie values it's freedom so much, would have such religious overtones.

[saoir]

Isn't the religiousity supposed to be the result of many early European settlers fleeing from religious persecution in their home countries? The Pilgrim Fathers weren't exactly atheist ...

Well .... According to Richard Dawkins...

". . the Founding Fathers considered religion to be a threat to democracy. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, claimed "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" (p. 43). Benjamin Franklin said "Lighthouses are more useful than churches" (p. 43). A 1796 treaty signed by John Adams declares, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" (p. 40). Adams also said, "this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it" (p. 43)."

[newatheist]

I have been told that one reason for this is the lack of pubs and pub culture - no seriously!

I was told this by an American chap I met who was, um, pastor I suppose of a non-religious church in California. It was a place where like-minded people could gather and do - well - I don't know what really. He led them in this activity. He, quite seriously, reckoned that churchgoing was used in the same way as Brits might go to the local pub - presumably without the booze.

The explanation I've always heard is that, Americans are all immigrants and the churches provided a ready made social network to people who are in a new town and had no friends or connections, so they thrived.

But why do they continue to thrive? By twisting the freedom of religion rule? I'm more interested in how cults can form so easily in the US.