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Thread: Placebos.

  1. #1
    Hero member bindeweede's Avatar
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    Placebos.

    I thought I understood the essential nature of placebos, though not being a scientist, I realised that I might not have got the full picture. Well, this article from Steven Novella just complicates the issue for me. Good article though.

    http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2415#more-2415






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  2. #2

    Re: Placebos.

    This too might be a naive thought, but I would think that if you are looking for control for substance x, and the active group receives x+fillers and coating, that i makes sense for the placebo group to just get the fillers and coating. This of course assumes that the relationship between any effects due to the coating and fillers and the drug are totally linear, but any other functional relationship could work if the knowledge of the drug interactions are well known.
    One of the comments, seems like a pretty good idea so long as the drugs don't interact, interfere or supplement each other.
    Wasn't aware controls were so complicated...

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    Hero member Pebble's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Nice academic point, however, pragmatic reality requires that the placebo mimics the active therapy in terms of appearance, smell, taste and known minor side effects, as possible to the active agent - otherwise it is not a placebo. Inducing huge discussions about active placebos is merely distracting - either the active agent is superior or it is not - that is the essence of empiricism. This discussion is largely driven by those trying to wriggle out of negative findings - e.g. sham acupuncture.
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. Voltaire

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    Member asydhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    I read somewhere in a long discussion that placebo and positive thinking are not the same thing. I want to use this idea to criticise David Hamilton, who seems to equate the two. I have exchanged several emails with him recently, and he is a slippery fish, backing off in his email replies from the exhorbitant claims he made in an article he published in the local woo magazine, leading up to his appearance here to sell his "positive thinking" "quantum field healing", which he claims is like placebo... for which he also makes great claims (placebo accounts for "81%" of the effectiveness of "most antidepressants"! What a mix of vagueness and accuracy! I guess he figures his audience wouldn't appreciate the importance of error bars in scientific figures, but they'll be impressed by that finely controlled 1% over the 80!)

    As I understand it, placebo effects occur from unconscious clues picked up by the recipient, and even if they have a negative attitude to life or their disease, the patient can exhibit a placebo response. Positive thinking, on the other hand, can have beneficial effects in support of a healthy immune system, or swiftness of recovery from minor ailments (or mood disorders like non-clinical depression?), but no effect at all on serious dieseases or cancer, for instance (apart from helping to cope with the side-effects of chemo etc).

    It's a little tricky to keep the difference straight, and express it so an unsympathetic reader will understand and accept it.

    Can anyone help me express this (and perhaps understand it!) a little better?

    I've just about reached the endgame with Hamilton... he has not responded to my last email, wherein I laid it on the line that he had misled me by using his PhD in his masthead for the article, and asked him if he didn't think he should stop using it. I'm going to try one more email, and if he doesn't reply I'm going to post the whole exchange of emails here for your amusement (and possibly for your use in future encounters with him or his ilk)... It was his abuse of his PhD in claiming he'd seen third degree burns healing in less than 24 hours that really got me annoyed, so I wrote him to ask for evidence... not using that word though! I tried to get him to repeat the claim, but he wriggled out of it, claiming it was a mistake... well, that still shows how much contempt he has for his information, and for the people he's trying to sell his hot air to.

    Thanks for any thoughts/clarification on how to talk about the difference between placebo and positive thinking.

  5. #5
    Hero member Matt's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    I know what he's talking about with regard to the antidepressants. It was a big story earlier this year.

    Here's the citation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20051569

    Not much help, (1) because what he says is relatively accurate (2) because the accuracy of the statement is not the problem, the relevance is. It's an Ignoratio ElenchiWikipedia reference-link or a red herring.

    If he were offering to treat only mild depression he could perhaps have a claim to be only 20% worse that real treatment. I seem to remember that this character at least doesn't advise his patients to abandon conventional medicine. So his patients would be getting that 80% anyway. I would doubt that the effects "stack," they might do but I haven't seen any evidence that they would do. Moreover the proportion of to clinical outcomes attributable to placebo vary with condition. There's a reason he chose anti depressants. The same cannot be said for lats say "breast cancer" a subject on which he apparently to be held a workshop in London on the 22nd.

    In fact he has no qualm at all about mentioning cancer on his site.
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sit...ton.com+cancer

    This can be dicey ground as both Gary Mannion and Adrian Pengelly have found at the hands of trading standards offices tipped off by activists such as yourself.

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    Member asydhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Thanks Matt.

    I was pondering taking my efforts to Trading Standards because of the exaggerated claims in the article I first read... but in his subsequent email responses to my enquiries he has claimed he sent an old draft by mistake (and then referred to that as having sent the "wrong email"). I was wondering whether a claim like he made could be prosecuted even though he later claimed he'd made the claim by mistake. The article making the claim should have been checked by the author for such mistakes prior to publication, surely? I mean, he has made the claim, and it stands in print for the many weeks between issues. If he doesn't take steps to remove the issue from circulation, or at least make a retraction in the local press, isn't his mistake still knowingly allowed to stand in the public eye?

    Any thoughts on this? I'll probably go and speak to Citizen's Advice Bureau anyway, but any advice from you lot would be welcome.

    PS Just followed your link, and yep, there he is making claims about curing cancer... 7 people attesting they healed cancer in his new book! Is that enough for the trading standards people to be interested in checking him out?

    The link to the anti-depressant study winds up saying that proper deep clinical depression is not responsive to placebo (or does it mean not as much as to real medication?), whereas mild depression can be affected by placebo... that's how I interpret their conclusion. Not wanting to disrespect those experiencing depression, but common sense (not really to be trusted, I know!) would say that means some people are just having low mood swings, and not really experiencing true depression? And so those low moods can be lifted by a shift in mentation, i.e. by the belief they are receiving medication which will lift their mood (placebo effect), whereas truly depressed people can not shift it with a change in their thinking... which is what Hamilton claims in his article, because he doesn't differentiate between the people treated, stating simply that "the placebo effect of most antidepressants accounts for 81% of the drug's effectiveness" which says by my understanding of the English language that all patients get 81% of the effect they receive from the placebo effect, and that only 19% of the effect they receive from the medication.... which is a far cry from what the study actually says, isn't it?
    Last edited by asydhouse; 25th October 2010 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Addition

  7. #7
    Hero member Pebble's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Quote Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
    Thanks Matt.



    PS Just followed your link, and yep, there he is making claims about curing cancer... 7 people attesting they healed cancer in his new book! Is that enough for the trading standards people to be interested in checking him out?

    ...stating simply that "the placebo effect of most antidepressants accounts for 81% of the drug's effectiveness" which says by my understanding of the English language that all patients get 81% of the effect they receive from the placebo effect, and that only 19% of the effect they receive from the medication.... which is a far cry from what the study actually says, isn't it?
    Whether he claims to cure cancer or not is the issue, simply quoting others who themselves claim he cured their cancer would be OK, so long as there was no implication that he could repeat this trick.

    The second statement is clear misrepresentation. He is completely leaving out regression to the mean and natural variation thus attribuiting all changes in the parameters measured to a given intervention.

    Bascially this is a complete failure to understand research methodology. The only issue outcomes is the difference between the placebo and the active therapy. To properly assess the placebo contribution requires a non placebo conventionally managed randomised cohort of sufficient size to give statistically meaningful data, as a third arm to your study.
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. Voltaire

  8. #8
    Member asydhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Thanks for that. I've sent him my final email... trying to lure him into making more statements, or possibly even genuinely considering what he has been doing I'm naive enough to live in hope!

    Just so you can see how I've expressed my understanding of the difference between placebo and positive thinking, here is the crux of what I put to him in the previous email (the one he didn't reply to.):

    " I have looked up placebo, and I have looked up positive thinking. It seems that people who do real science say they are not the same. Sometimes positive thinkers die of their disease, sometimes negative thinkers survive. Placebo is only effective in treatment of symptoms, not actual disease cure. Also, no quantum physicists say that you can connect your will to quantum levels. You can't move electrons by thinking. In fact brain waves are much larger than quantum waves, and quantum is so much faster than thinking that they just think you are talking nonsense."

    I'd appreciate any comments/improvements on how I express this difference between placebo and positive thinking, before I send my letter to the local magazine where I read his article in the first place.

    I've been playing a little dumb, not writing with my real vocabulary, and nor with my actual level of writing/grammatical knowledge/skills (such as they are!). I imagine he was surprised when I sprang that on him, and then asked him to desist from using his credentials in the bogus way he does. Today I sent him this final follow-up (in the subject heading I put "I'm sorry", hoping he will open the email and read it. Sneaky, huh? :

    "Good morning David,

    I didn't realise it was the day before your thing in Swansea when I wrote you last. I didn't mean to interfere, I hope you were able to perform ok. I was surprised you didn't answer my letter, because I thought you were a nice person, and leaving me hanging is kind of mean especially when I was so down. But I understand you were busy, and maybe you are researching placebo and positive thinking, because of what I said. Maybe you are trying to prove that you are right to keep using your PhD the way you do, after what I said. But I am serious when I say you shouldn't. I was really hurt by that whole train of events, and you should acknowledge that. Am I wrong in thinking you should take responsibility for your actions?

    I am trying hard to think positive. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. It's not a happy thing that my doubt is that you are sincere. I haven't heard from you since I said I couldn't buy anything. The same happened with Bryce. He gave up on me after I said I couldn't buy, even though he was so full of talk until then, telling me all positive thinking stuff... he lost interest kind of sudden!

    Well, here I am trying again to think positive... giving you a chance to show you are not just selling dreams to rich people with no real problems. Can you help me out with understanding you? Are you a sincere healer? What do you say about my questions? Please?

    Thankyou David for taking time to read and think about my problems.

    Sincerely yours, Syd"

    I'll start a new thread in a week or so if I don't hear from him, and post the whole correspondence from both of these plausible villains

    Gotta do some work for my MA! See you in a bit! Syd

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    Member asydhouse's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    UPDATE

    All on hold while I contemplate approach... He replied, and he seems to be open to a friendly discussion... I'm thinking of trying to recruit him to some sort of skeptical position! He's quite contrite about raising my hopes, and promising not to do it again... but I haven't got back to him because of too little time/energy for the thickening plot (my ageing parents suddenly moved back from Australia and stayed in our small house with us for 5 weeks!... that's weird, felt like 40 years had vanished, living with them, sneaking out for a smoke after they went to bed etc)...

    So, after this semester's project is done, I hope to engage with him some more... sorry to dangle this, but I will be back!

  10. #10
    Junior Member wheels5894's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    This is a topic in last week's New Scientists magazine, the text of which I append as it needs a log-in to read it. Sorry it is a bit wordy but it does show us the present problems we have.

    Getting wise to the real power of placebos

    (13 December 2010 by Irving Kirsch)

    PLACEBO comes from the Latin for "I shall please". And for people suffering from conditions such as Parkinson's disease, asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, arthritis and depression, placebos are very pleasing. After all, wouldn't everyone want a treatment - be it sugar pill "drug" or sham acupuncture - that made them feel better without producing the side effects associated with active medications? Some side effects in patient information leaflets are scary indeed. Placebos are, however, less good news for clinical researchers, drug developers and the like, who need to be able to disentangle the physical actions of "real" interventions from the effects produced by the power of suggestion. One of the biggest disease groups caught up in the complexities of the placebo is mental illness. This affects nearly 20 per cent of us at some stage in our lives and fuels a $19-billion drugs industry.
    I have spent the past few years making waves with papers and books about placebos and their role in the development and action of psychiatric drugs. After extracting reams of unpublished drug trial data from the major pharmaceutical companies (via the US Food and Drug Administration, and freedom of information legislation), I have come up with a bold-sounding theory: the placebo effect may account for all of the benefits of antidepressants.
    Proving this will be extremely difficult, since big pharma naturally has a vested interest in drugs working as stated, so I'm going to come at the problem from a variety of directions. One is to use more effective placebos in double-blind clinical trials. Another is to give cheap, simple questionnaires to drug-trial participants.
    First let's look at how placebos are used in clinical trials. Before a new drug is approved for marketing, it has to be tested for safety and efficacy. The gold standard for establishing efficacy is the randomised clinical trial (RCT), in which patients with a particular disorder are randomly assigned to receive either the active drug or a placebo - a dummy pill with no active ingredients. The medication is approved only if its effect in treating the disease is reliably superior to that of a placebo.
    A critical aspect of the RCT is that it should be double blind, meaning that neither doctor nor patient knows whether the patient is receiving drug or placebo. Blinding is important because of the need to control for the effect of expectancy - the belief that one is receiving treatment - since it seems that a person's belief that they will get better is often enough to make them feel better. The current thinking by most doctors is that if patients know they have been given a placebo, the placebo effect would disappear; conversely, patients would show an especially large placebo effect if they were certain they had been given the drug being trialled.
    The double-blind RCT is supposed to control for these responses, so we know that any differences are due to the chemical effects of the medication on the patient's disorder. The question is whether RCTs are up to the job of keeping patients blind.
    Studying clinical trials of antidepressants shows they are not. Many patients and their doctors are able to work out whether the patient has been given the real antidepressant or the placebo. In one of the few clinical trials in which patients were asked to guess what group they were in, 78 per cent were able to do so accurately. The doctors were even better: their accuracy rate was a whopping 87 per cent. If patients and doctors "break blind", then differences between drug and placebo in clinical trials may be illusions.
    So how are patients and doctors breaking blind? One big possibility is that patients on the real drug are tipped off by the side effects produced. Researchers at Syracuse University in New York state reported a correlation of 0.85 between patients' reports of side effects and the amount of improvement they experienced. A perfect correlation would be 1.00, so 0.85 is huge. I call it the "enhanced placebo" effect: where patients notice side effects, realise that they have been given the real drug and therefore feel an improvement.
    The problem of breaking blind on the basis of side effects may not be limited to antidepressants, but we just don't know how widespread it is because patients are rarely asked to guess what they have been given in clinical trials. But the few studies there have been show they are often able to do so accurately.
    I need to inject a word of caution: please don't get me wrong, I am sure most prescription drugs are more effective than placebos. But when the differences between drug and placebo are small, and the drugs produce easily noticeable side effects, it is possible that there may be no real drug effect. We may be fooling ourselves with clinical trial methods that don't do what they are supposed to - and wasting billions on worthless medications.
    What can we do? There are some research designs aimed at getting around the problem of breaking blind. One of them involves using an "active" placebo, a real drug that does not affect the condition being studied but which produces real side effects. For example, atropine has been used in a few clinical trials of antidepressants. Atropine is used in the treatment of many conditions, including irritable bowel syndrome, peptic ulcers, and to control symptoms of Parkinson's disease. It is not an antidepressant, but it has some of the same side effects, including a dry mouth, insomnia, headaches and drowsiness.
    Of the nine antidepressant trials in which atropine was used as an active placebo, researchers in two reported that the drug being tested showed significant benefits. In the other seven, no significant difference was found. Unfortunately, these studies were done decades ago on the first generation of antidepressants. The newer drugs have only been compared with inert placebos that do not produce side effects - at least not because of their chemical composition. Placebos can produce side effects psychologically, though these are generally much fewer than those induced by active drugs.
    Active placebos might seem like a major alteration of clinical trial methods, but the change is less radical than it seems. Placebos are necessarily composed of some substance, and as Beatrice Golomb at the University of California, San Diego, School of Medicine recently pointed out, no substance is truly inert. When Golomb researched the placebos used in clinical trials, she discovered that the ingredients were usually not disclosed.
    Where they were revealed, she found that sometimes they were substances capable of distorting the clinical trial results. In one study, lactose was used as a placebo to test a weight-promoting drug for cancer patients. The problem is that lactose intolerance is common in cancer patients. So the lactose in the placebo might have induced gastrointestinal problems that enhanced weight loss and made the drug look better than it was.
    My active-placebo proposal is that the ingredients of placebos be chosen to mimic the side effects of the drug being tested and, as Golomb recommended, they should be disclosed when clinical trials are published.
    Active placebos alone may not be enough to solve the problem of breaking blind, however. In the atropine trials, the real drugs produced more side effects than the active placebo, and patients were more accurate in guessing the drug they were on than would be predicted by chance. So there could be spurious side effects even when active placebos are used. Still, given the substantial sums being spent on medications that might not have real benefits but produce unwanted side effects, funding studies with active placebos might be money well spent - at least for patients and taxpayers.
    Meanwhile, there is one easy thing we can do: assess the level to which patients are breaking blind in antidepressant trials that use ordinary placebos. All we have to do is ask patients to guess if they have been given the real drug or the placebo - it would cost next to nothing. Why not make it a requirement for licensing new drugs? And by finding out how many clinical trials involve patients breaking blind, we could end up making a strong case for clinical trials using active placebos.

  11. #11
    Hero member Pebble's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels5894 View Post
    This is a topic in last week's New Scientists magazine, the text of which I append as it needs a log-in to read it. Sorry it is a bit wordy but it does show us the present problems we have.
    Good to see the issue of variable placebo efficacy being raised - but:

    There are a number of problems with this proposal.

    First one of the roles of DBRCTs is to determine the safety of activte treatments, this requires an inert placebo.

    Focusing peoples attention on whether they are on placebo or active drug can also affect the trial, though perhaps if asked only after the trial has been completed this may be reasonable. However, as a trial progresses those performing the trial and the participants gradually learn the typical side effect profile of the agents being studied, so they are more likely to guess correctly toward the end.

    Many trials now have the same frequency of side effects reported in both the active and placebo arms. Historically this was not the case, so old trials are probably not a good guide to current issues.

    Perhaps this is an issue for a phase IIIb trial, where characteristic side effects are noted in the phase III trial, a further trial against active placebos could be recommended.
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. Voltaire

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    Junior Member wheels5894's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    More trials! I see your point but the time it takes to get drugs to users is long enough at the present and I wonder if companies would call development a day if they cost more. I think it needs some individual consideration and in particular a survey of patients and doctors as to which the placebo was to see how easy it is to spot the real drug. Where the double blind trial is unblinded by the side effects I suspect we ought to consider a further trial and, perhaps, where the difference between the placebo and the drug is very small - say 5%.

    Anyway it ought to be aired and talked about.

  13. #13

    Re: Placebos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebble View Post
    First one of the roles of DBRCTs is to determine the safety of activte treatments, this requires an inert placebo.
    But if the active placebo is known to be safe already, where is the problem?

    Focusing peoples attention on whether they are on placebo or active drug can also affect the trial, though perhaps if asked only after the trial has been completed this may be reasonable. However, as a trial progresses those performing the trial and the participants gradually learn the typical side effect profile of the agents being studied, so they are more likely to guess correctly toward the end.
    Surely the point is that many participants are already guessing, without prompting, whether they are on the active drug so rendering the trial meaningless.

  14. #14
    Hero member Pebble's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harryprice View Post
    But if the active placebo is known to be safe already, where is the problem?



    Surely the point is that many participants are already guessing, without prompting, whether they are on the active drug so rendering the trial meaningless.

    The adverse event rate of truly inert placebos e.g. glucose, is between 10 & 30% in most trials. The side effect profile of the active agent is usually unknown at the time of designing the trial. How would you determine the side effect profile without a neutral comparator?

    Guessing is not a problem, so long as the capacity to guess correctly is random.
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. Voltaire

  15. #15
    Junior Member wheels5894's Avatar
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    Re: Placebos.

    Good points but -


    1. After a couple of previous smaller trials at least the main side-effects of the new drug ought to be known even if more side-effects turn up when larger trials are undertaken. It should be possible to select a suitable 'active' placebo that matched at least a couple of the test drugs side-effects.
    2. The completely inactive placebos produce some side-effects only goes to show that the patient population that tests these are easily open to suggestion and are perhaps looking to hard to fins side-effects. Providing 'active' placebos would surely allow them to notice some side effects and this stop them looking for side effects that are not really there.

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