A problem for Skeptics: Morality

[PsySpi]

Consider the statement-

We have no soul, there are no higher powers, we live in a material universe there is no judgement.

Now, what reason have I, rationally to do anything but that which gives me gain? Why help people, why not murder? What basis for our morals?

It is an old problem and I have not seen a good answer to it. I am aware atheists and skeptics are as moral as anyone else but I do not see the basis used.

[wollery]

Simple self interest.

If I go around murdering other people then what's to stop other people trying to murder me. It's in my interest to treat people well, just as it's in their interest to treat me well.

It's called the golden rule, and it's far simpler and easier to follow than an abstract and arbitrary set of rules set out by a handful of priests.

I assume that you are a christian, in which case I must ask, do you follow the biblical instruction to not boil a kid in its mother's milk? How about the requirement to stone to death a rape victim who doesn't scream loudly enough?

If not then you aren't following the moral code laid out by your god.

And how about the ratio of religious to non religious prison inmates? If the religious are more moral then surely there should be a greater proportion of non religious people in prison than in the general populace. In fact the reverse is true, the proportion of non religious inmates is far lower than the proportion in the general populace.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Consider the statement-

We have no soul, there are no higher powers, we live in a material universe there is no judgement.

Now, what reason have I, rationally to do anything but that which gives me gain? Why help people, why not murder? What basis for our morals?

It is an old problem and I have not seen a good answer to it. I am aware atheists and skeptics are as moral as anyone else but I do not see the basis used.

You will probably get differing answers from skeptics about the nature and basis of moral obligation. There is plenty of room for disagreement about what gives other persons moral worth.

However, one thing on which I should expect to see some agreement is this: no morality can be grounded in the threat of eternal torture at the command of a supernatural despot. He may be able to get his way, but that cannot make his way the right way.

If you want to pursue the subject, try a search on the Euthyphro question and the distinction between moral obligation and prudential obligation, which is first~year material in moral philosophy. Or you may want to have a look at this

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist..._do_right.html

and at the rest of the Internet Infidels site.

[tkingdoll]

PsiSpy,

If you read Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion, you will get a more than thorough answer to your question.

In the book, Dawkins demostrates how morality does not come from religion or God at all, in fact quite the opposite. Humans are moral because it benefits us as a species. The God of the bible teaches the opposite of modern morality, so atheists had it right all along.

I can't do his arguments justice, just read the book.

[PsySpi]

Simple self interest.

If I go around murdering other people then what's to stop other people trying to murder me. It's in my interest to treat people well, just as it's in their interest to treat me well.

It's called the golden rule, and it's far simpler and easier to follow than an abstract and arbitrary set of rules set out by a handful of priests.

Isn't that from Christianity though?

I assume that you are a christian, in which case I must ask, do you follow the biblical instruction to not boil a kid in its mother's milk? How about the requirement to stone to death a rape victim who doesn't scream loudly enough?

If not then you aren't following the moral code laid out by your god.

No, Christianity is the new testament, not just the old.

And how about the ratio of religious to non religious prison inmates? If the religious are more moral then surely there should be a greater proportion of non religious people in prison than in the general populace. In fact the reverse is true, the proportion of non religious inmates is far lower than the proportion in the general populace.

Maybe they find God while in prison?

[PsySpi]

but no one has yet explained why a human should act so without religion, just what is wrong with morality based of religion.

Why should we not act selfishly? Answers relating to the benefit of the species still dont answer why an INDIVIDUAL should.

[tkingdoll]

Have you read the bible? It condones rape, murder, theft, torture, plus more. What Christian morality? There is none. If people are 'good', it's in spite of the bible, not because of it.

[PsySpi]

Have you read the bible? It condones rape, murder, theft, torture, plus more.

Where?

[Lord Muck oGentry]

but no one has yet explained why a human should act so without religion, just what is wrong with morality based of religion.

Why should we not act selfishly? Answers relating to the benefit of the species still dont answer why an INDIVIDUAL should.

If you have a careful look at the discussion upthread, you will see that at least one poster has given an answer to the question why we should ( ought to, in the moral sense) behave in certain ways: Wollery mentions self~interest. Others would give different answers. As I suggested, that is because skeptics may differ in their moral thinking.

The point about our performance as a species is factual, not moral. Roughly, it is an attempt to answer the question " How could we have got, and kept, the habit of putting the interests of others, at least sometimes, before our own?" without assuming that this could happen only because of religion. This shouldn't cause you too much difficulty, since you accepted in your opening post that atheists and skeptics can behave morally. Obviously, that moral behaviour cannot be the effect of religious belief.

[tkingdoll]

Have you read the bible? It condones rape, murder, theft, torture, plus more.

Where?

Oh boy, are you in for a surprise. I guess you haven't read it then? All of it, I mean, not the cherrypicked parts the church likes to feed you.

OK, here's a website for you to do your own research, I've started you by linking to just the cruelty in Exodus, but every chapter is there :

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/cr_list.html

[kath23]

It is an old problem and I have not seen a good answer to it. I am aware atheists and skeptics are as moral as anyone else but I do not see the basis used.

Some of us are just intrinsically lovely :)

What I mean is, maybe I'm just a really good person and don't even have to try to be good?

Lol maybe not.

Personally any good I do (or times I refrain from being evil) is due to a mixture of shame, guilt, and yes, a fear of getting caught.

These are all socially inculcated, by my atheist, socialist parents largely.

I just wanna be a good person, you know?
Love
Kath
P.S. On the other hand, I have to admit there's something about the whole idea of 'morals' I find hard to take seriously. Hence instead of having a moral code I tend to try to embody qualities such as being warm, friendly, or generally adorable :)

[wollery]

Isn't that from Christianity though?

It may have been mentioned somewhere in the bible, but it's also mentioned in just about every religious text in existence, many of which predate christianity, so no, it's not "from" christianity, and it can be taught with absolutely no recourse to any divinity.

No, Christianity is the new testament, not just the old.

So the old testament rules don't apply? That's cherrypicking your moral code according to modern mores and what suits you personally. Seems that you're ignoring your god's moral code, which begs the question, if your moral code doesn't come from your god then where does it come from?

Maybe they find God while in prison?

It's possible. But would you admit that it's also possible that the statistics reflect the actual state, and that a larger proportion of religious people commit crimes?

[Dr B]

In my humble opinion religion is corrosive and divisive. It is a cancer of the human race. I hope in a few thousand years it will have evolved out

If it were down to religion, we would still all be in caves and mud huts.....I say send the christians (any religion) back!!!!

[PsySpi]

Have you read the bible? It condones rape, murder, theft, torture, plus more.

Where?

Oh boy, are you in for a surprise. I guess you haven't read it then? All of it, I mean, not the cherrypicked parts the church likes to feed you.

OK, here's a website for you to do your own research, I've started you by linking to just the cruelty in Exodus, but every chapter is there :

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/cr_list.html

Instead, the cherry picked parts atheists like to feed you?

try this: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.org/

(unfortunately you must pay to download it which is disappointing, and ruins the effect, but there is a sample of it on there which shows how easy the points are to dispute.)


Besides, all of those are human actions. God does what must be done for tha ultimate good.

[wollery]

So the rules laid down by god in Leviticus are fine by you. Remember, these are divinely proscribed rules.

And as for skepticsannotatedbible, it has the entire bible, good bits as well as bad, and the quran and the book of mormon. It simply highlights the relevant passages.

I love the way the Christian "corrected version" of skepticsannotatedbible charges for the privilege!