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  1. #1

    Paradox of Nothingness short version

    If the world is fundamentally logical then it must have a logical reason for being. But is the world logical? I don't know. But I must assume it is because I can only think logically and it appears to behave logically and that is all the evidence I have to go on. And if it is that means it can be explained.

    Assuming the world is logical it seems to me there are two and only two possibilites here; 1- the universe can explain itself because that reason for being is intrinsic to it. 2-the universe is contingent on something else that has a logical reason for being intrinsic to it.

    Eternity is a fact I have no problem with but just pushing "causes" back in time (or even outside of time for that matter) one after another without end seems to me to be the wrong way to think about it. It is in my opinion nothing more than a linear version of a circular argument. The system may go back forever but what explains the system itself? Why should it exist at all?

    Now do I have any reason to believe the universe can explain itself? Well what is the universe? Science tells me it is an energy field that exists in a continuum, formed in the big bang, that curves in various places and in various degrees. The greater the curvature the greater the energy. Also energy, according to Einstein, is equivilent to matter. There is an argument that presents itself here. If the outward expansion of the universe exactly balances the force of gravity trying to pull it all back in then the curvature of the universe as a whole would be zero. So matter then would also be equal to zero or nothing. That is the universe just popped into being like a virtual particle out of the void because of the inherent uncertainty arising from quantum physics.

    This argument attempts to make a connection between something and nothing (if matter is just a form of energy it, too, is equivalent to zero or nothing) but in my opinion it actually fails because it uses the term zero (0) incorrectly.

    The fallacy here, it seems to me, is that the argument equates zero meaning "nothing" with zero meaning "no difference". In other words it is ambiguous. I could put an ounce of gold in each pan of a balance scale and it would indidcate zero meaning no difference but I would still have two ounces of gold.

    Zero meaning nothing is not the same. You can not divide zero and get any answer other than zero. Half of nothing is still nothing. And since complexity seems to arise from simplicity not the other way around and this seems to be the simplest possible description of the universe (half the energy,gravity, is positive and attractive and goes this way- the other half, the force of the outward expansion, is negative and repulsive and goes the opposite way) I have no reason to assume there is any intrinsic reason for being to be found materially.

    Besides even virtual particles seem to require an infusion of pre-existing energy in order to become stable and thus "real" and where did that come from? It appears for uncertainty to explain anything you must first have something to be uncertain about.

    In fact the Polish mathematician Jacob Bronowski, author of the book The Ascent Of Man, found the term "uncertainty" so misleading he proposed using the word "tolerences" instead. After all that there are 36 possible outcomes on a roll of two 6 sided dice is certain it is only the actual value that comes up on any specific toss that is unpredictible. Our universe may be the same. Uncertainty may indeed have played a role in its formation and the way it turned out but where did the dice come from? Why is there uncertainty about nothing?

    Now again asking, "How can something come from nothing?" may be the wrong question. For the time being we could rephrase it and ask why is there something instead of nothing? Or what is it about nothingness that keeps it from being absolute?

    If the world is logical then it is subject to the rules of logic. Terms in a sentence are qualified by the copula using a form of the words is or is not. By applying the words is not to the concept of "being" as a whole you will get a non-arbitrary logical definition of nothingness as "no being" which, since it applies to the concept as a whole, is absolute..

    Now here is where the contradiction arises. Ideas are not concrete things but that does not mean they are not something. I can distinguish between a 9 which is an odd number and a square and an 8 which is an even number and not a square. They have different properties and are therefore things in their own right as concepts. But concepts seem to require a mind to exist. That is they are contingent on an observer.

    The example I use are stones and coins. I can hold 9 coins in one hand and 9 stones in the other but where is the number 9 apart from what I hold in my hand? I can sense no other property they have in common other than they are physical but changing the quantity doesn't seem to affect the physical characteristics of either group. So the number itself is not intrinsic to either group. I can understand the number 9 but I can not point to anything in nature and say this is the number 9 by itself. I can only think about it.

    Nothingness is likewise a concept. After all we are thinking about it now. But if it is a concept then nothingness is not nothing. That is a paradox and in logic paradoxes can not exist. What happens when an irresistible force collides with an immovable object? An inconceivable event of course. Paradoxes must be dismissed as inconceivable and nothingness is a paradox therefore I must conclude a "state of nothingness" can not exist. Just saying "non-existence exists" is absurd. The only way to avoid a paradox is to have a state of existence instead of non-existence.

    Absolute nothingness is to my mind an impossibility. Absolute means just that. Absolute. No properties at all. Not even potential. That means it can not even be thought of as there would literally be nothing to think about (and no one to think it anyway). But, again, since we are thinking about it nothingness can not be absolute. Nothingness is the only thing we can think of in completely negative terms except for the fact it can be thought of.

    Also in logic things must follow or you have a non-sequiter. In the syllogism itself it is the middle term that unites the major and minor premises and leads to a conclusion. In life it is the DNA passed from one generation to the next that permits the evolution of species. And in pool it is the energy transmitted from the stick to the balls that allows the game to be played.

    So, following from the definitions just established, whatever that fundemental state is it must also be a concept as that is the only thing being and nothingness have in common. That is, to be clear, the concept of nothingness exists but is self-contradictory and therefore unstable. It must collapse into a state that is stable and non-contradictory. This is not an assertion anything came from absolute nothingness which I hope to have shown I have no reason to believe is possible. And because concepts must be observed by a mind that fundemental concept must be self-referential as there is nothing else to see it. That means it can say I AM, which is the same self-referential foundation of the mind we all share, and thus hold Itself in existence. Therefore it is a self aware observer and since it is fundemantal it is prime. Therfore it is the Prime Observer.

    Does this match what I see in the world? Yes. Einstein showed that matter is just energy in particle form. Erwin Schrodinger then showed that energy can be manifested as a wave. Lastly Max Born showed that waves are just probability distributions which are mathematical in nature and mathematics is just the logical organization of numbers which are concepts.

    Some materialists argue that numbers are just manifestations of processes in the brain we impose upon the world. But I have no reason to accept that either because it too is a circular argument. You can't just assert the brain and its processes are material in order to prove the brain and its processes are material. If the universe and the things in it are basically concept then so is the brain. The brain is an organ made of tissue composed of cells built from organelles fashioned out of atoms which are particles made of energy...

    A better tactic I think would be to counter the argument by saying it must be wrong because it holds paradoxes can not exist yet we see paradoxes all around us especially in physics. For example quantum theory says particles are also waves isn't that a paradox? Maybe. Maybe not. To know for sure that was a true paradox and not an illusion that results from our limited experiance we would have to have a complete theory of everything. But we don't. So we must regard any theory that asserts anything paradoxical as incomplete which physics is. In fact there are theories that do seem to suggest wave/particle duality is an illusion (Julian Barbour's quantum state theory of the universe for instance.)

    Asserting God as a solution to a problem is called the argument from incredulity. The trouble with it is that answer does not follow from the problem to be solved. Ancient people couldn't explain life so God must have created it. I don't think I've done that here. The conclusion that there must be a "Prime Observer" follows directly from the premises. It is not something I just threw in to fill some "gap". In fact as I look back on it I don't see how I could come to any other reasonable conclusion"
    Last edited by Alumno deVerum; 29th April 2007 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Because I'm an American and don't know no better

  2. #2
    The Non-creator God

    One of the most common questions asked of Deists who doubt divine intervention is how can a God incapable of interferring in the world "create" that same world? The short answer is God doesn't "create" the world.

    This does not mean the world is not contingent on God. I have written before why I think a Deistic God probably exists so I won't go over it again here but I will elaborate a little on why I think it unnecessary to think of God as an active "creator".

    I call myself a "natural idealist" because I think the world is fundamentally concept. This appears to be congruent with the way quantum mechanics describes the "physical" world. Albert Einstein demonstrated that matter is just a form of energy. Then Erwin Schrodinger showed energy is manifested as a wave. Finally Max Born proved that waves are just how mathematics distributes probabilities.

    If the universe is nothing more than probability waves manifested as space/time then it could "precipitate" naturally out of what I call the "Prime Observer". Utilizing a technique first developed by the French mathematician Jean Baptiste Fourier complex ideas may be produced by adding together many different frequency waves making one wave with a distinctive shape. If all possible waveforms, positive and negative, are added together the resulting “shape” would be a single flat line (not no line).

    As the source of all being the Prime Observer then could be thought of as a perfectly smooth self-referential concept analogous to a sphere (remember this is just a device to help us think about something far beyond our experiance). God, then, would be the simplest possible concept but contain within It all the complexities that can ever be.

    Imagine a perfect sphere. "Ripples" could emerge soley by chance on the surface of such an object simply because it is possible for them to. As long as they don't occur simultaneously and cancel out such probability waves may arise unprompted. If the crest of a wave equals its trough then there is no net difference in the overall geometry of that sphere. That is there is no change in it as a whole.

    Applying this to the world we see around us we could say any combination of waveforms that don't cancel out could spontaneously emerge (as long as they are balanced) simply because that which we call "God" is aware of them. Things happen because they can happen and they can happen because those things don't result in contradiction. Thus since all possibilities are already incorporated within It God does not need to "cause" anything. As long as the chance of them occurring does not equal zero they will happen all by themselves. This has the potential of solving several problems among them:

    1- It shows how God can be the source of all being and remain immutable.

    2- It could explain why our universe is predominately matter by saying we could have a sister universe that is mostly anti-matter (if the world is contingent on God then God must be able to explain the physical properties of the world).

    3- Why the world seems designed for life by holding all possible worlds may emerge including those that are barren and we just happen to be in one of the few that has physical laws that allow the formation of planets that can support life. Kurt Godel pointed out the philosophical difficulties of mathematical descriptions of the world based on axioms. Why these rules? Why not others? May be those questions can simply be avoided if all non-contradictory axiomatic models, manifested as universes, are possible.

    4- If Deism is true why would God would abandon It's creation? The world was not "created" therefore it was not "abandoned". You can't blame the evils in the world on God.

    5- If God exists then why does It exist? God exists in order to avoid the "paradox of nothingness" and holds Itself in existence because It is self referential thus allowing God to say "I AM" the same foundation of the self we all share.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    If the world is basically concept it must be observed and, therefore, God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created". If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    For a more complete explanation of this form of Deism please check this link:

    http://dynamicdeism.org/forum/phpBB2...pic.php?t=1802
    Last edited by Alumno deVerum; 29th April 2007 at 12:50 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    I wonder if Alumno deVerum is writing from passion or from reason; most probably being human he is writing from passion and using reason to attempt an explanation for a passion, namely, the belief in God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alumno deVerum View Post
    The Non-creator God

    One of the most common questions asked of Deists who doubt divine intervention is how can a God incapable of interferring in the world "create" that same world? The short answer is God doesn't "create" the world.

    This does not mean the world is not contingent on God. I have written before why I think a Deistic God probably exists so I won't go over it again here but I will elaborate a little on why I think it unnecessary to think of God as an active "creator".

    I call myself a "natural idealist" because I think the world is fundamentally concept. This appears to be congruent with the way quantum mechanics describes the "physical" world. Albert Einstein demonstrated that matter is just a form of energy. Then Erwin Schrodinger showed energy is manifested as a wave. Finally Max Born proved that waves are just how mathematics distributes probabilities.

    If the universe is nothing more than probability waves manifested as space/time then it could "precipitate" naturally out of what I call the "Prime Observer". Utilizing a technique first developed by the French mathematician Jean Baptiste Fourier complex ideas may be produced by adding together many different frequency waves making one wave with a distinctive shape. If all possible waveforms, positive and negative, are added together the resulting “shape” would be a single flat line (not no line).

    As the source of all being the Prime Observer then could be thought of as a perfectly smooth self-referential concept analogous to a sphere (remember this is just a device to help us think about something far beyond our experiance). God, then, would be the simplest possible concept but contain within It all the complexities that can ever be.

    Imagine a perfect sphere. "Ripples" could emerge soley by chance on the surface of such an object simply because it is possible for them to. As long as they don't occur simultaneously and cancel out such probability waves may arise unprompted. If the crest of a wave equals its trough then there is no net difference in the overall geometry of that sphere. That is there is no change in it as a whole.

    Applying this to the world we see around us we could say any combination of waveforms that don't cancel out could spontaneously emerge (as long as they are balanced) simply because that which we call "God" is aware of them. Things happen because they can happen and they can happen because those things don't result in contradiction. Thus since all possibilities are already incorporated within It God does not need to "cause" anything. As long as the chance of them occurring does not equal zero they will happen all by themselves. This has the potential of solving several problems among them:

    1- It shows how God can be the source of all being and remain immutable.

    2- It could explain why our universe is predominately matter by saying we could have a sister universe that is mostly anti-matter (if the world is contingent on God then God must be able to explain the physical properties of the world).

    3- Why the world seems designed for life by holding all possible worlds may emerge including those that are barren and we just happen to be in one of the few that has physical laws that allow the formation of planets that can support life. Kurt Godel pointed out the philosophical difficulties of mathematical descriptions of the world based on axioms. Why these rules? Why not others? May be those questions can simply be avoided if all non-contradictory axiomatic models, manifested as universes, are possible.

    4- If Deism is true why would God would abandon It's creation? The world was not "created" therefore it was not "abandoned". You can't blame the evils in the world on God.

    5- If God exists then why does It exist? God exists in order to avoid the "paradox of nothingness" and holds Itself in existence because It is self referential thus allowing God to say "I AM" the same foundation of the self we all share.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    If the world is basically concept it must be observed and, therefore, God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created". If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    For a more complete explanation of this form of Deism please check this link:

    http://dynamicdeism.org/forum/phpBB2...pic.php?t=1802
    .

    If the world is basically concept it must be observed and, therefore, God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created". If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    Before anything else, we exist in any way existence can be understood, even as just concept in some mind; and that mind exists.

    If I am not mistaken, it is in Buddhism that nothing exists yet Buddhists talk about nothing unceasingly, starting with their own existence; but you have to be a Buddhist to talk about nothing exists and still you are talking about nothing -- which is what sharp people have pointed out to be the illogic of Buddhism, because they insist on the one hand that nothing exists, and on the other hand they talk and write endlessly to explain why they even bother to busy themselves with nothing.

    You must forgive these gentlemen, because they don't know about the principle of parsimony, meaning, don't complicate things unnecessarily, just admit what is obvious and simple; so just admit that things or something at the minimum exists and start from there.

    Otherwise you are just like the smartaleck kid who submitted a drawing entitled cows eating grass, but the drawing paper was all blank. The teacher asked him: "Where's the grass?" "All eated up by the cows," he answered. "And where are the cows?" "They all left after finishing the grass," the kid explained.


    Coming back to God as the Prime Observer:

    If the world is basically concept it must be observed and, therefore, God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created". If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    "If the world is basically concept it must be observed and, therefore, God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created".

    So the world is a concept which must postulate a concept generator, which then is the observer of the world concept, which observer is called by Alumno deVerum the Prime Observer or God, and everything in the world including in particular humans are concepts in God's mind.

    Is the world then "created" by God? Alumno deVerum says it does not follow: "God must exist but that is not the same as saying the universe must be "created".

    I can agree to that in the sense that the world being a concept entails a conceiver or concept generator, but a concept generator does not entail the actual existence of a concept -- at most only the possibility of its conceptual existence.

    If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    Addressing Alumno deVerum: Do you mean that since God is a concept observer or effectively an concept generator, He has got to generate a concept in order to observe the concept which is the world; and therefore inasmuch as He cannot otherwise than generate the concept, there is no purpose to the world: it exists because it can.

    God is Himself the self-coerced generator of the world, and any agent coerced cannot be said to act for a purpose to be achieved by the effect of his agency. I think I can also accept that.

    But here is what I can't see any rationally acceptable transition, namely, according to Alumno deVerum:

    However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.

    Responsible? Responsible to whom? To God Who is an agent of necessity Himself?


    Do we see the passion in Alumno deVerum attempting to work out a reason for the meaning of human existence, which is the mentality of theists, as opposed to atheists.


    On the other hand, theists do have a purpose, but atheists don't have any, just the same they are emotionally agitated -- to what end or against what targets?


    If you ask me, an extra terrestrial being: God is himself seeking a meaning, He is a developing or if you will an evolving God; theists are participating in that process of God's self-development or self-evolution; now, atheists are agitated against the God Which to them does not exist, and also against theists to all appearances.

    What do I recommend to atheists? Resolve your agitation and work out a meaning to existence and life, then consult the marketing experts if you are interested in gaining adherents to your advocacy.


    ergry

  4. #4
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    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    Quote Originally Posted by ergry View Post
    Coming back to God as the Prime Observer:

    I can agree to that in the sense that the world being a concept entails a conceiver or concept generator, but a concept generator does not entail the actual existence of a concept -- at most only the possibility of its conceptual existence.
    If that is true then there is no divine purpose to the world. It exists simply because it can. However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.
    Addressing Alumno deVerum: Do you mean that since God is a concept observer or effectively an concept generator, He has got to generate a concept in order to observe the concept which is the world; and therefore inasmuch as He cannot otherwise than generate the concept, there is no purpose to the world: it exists because it can.

    God is Himself the self-coerced generator of the world, and any agent coerced cannot be said to act for a purpose to be achieved by the effect of his agency. I think I can also accept that.

    But here is what I can't see any rationally acceptable transition, namely, according to Alumno deVerum:
    However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.
    Responsible? Responsible to whom? To God Who is an agent of necessity Himself?
    ............
    If you ask me, an extra terrestrial being: God is himself seeking a meaning, He is a developing or if you will an evolving God; theists are participating in that process of God's self-development or self-evolution; now, atheists are agitated against the God Which to them does not exist, and also against theists to all appearances.

    What do I recommend to atheists? Resolve your agitation and work out a meaning to existence and life, then consult the marketing experts if you are interested in gaining adherents to your advocacy.
    ergry
    I point out again that there is no meaning to an atheist for existence – or life. So there is nothing to work out – for an athiest.

    If you think of “God”, not as a “Prime Observer” observing concept, but as the “whole of everything” simply “being” (because it can), you get rid of the problem of “responsibility” to anything. If “the whole of everything” is evolving, are you suggesting that finding meaning to existence and life by Homo Sapiens is part of the evolution of “the whole of everything”? Do you think “the whole of everything” could carry on “being” without us? Is “observing” necessary to “being”?

    M



  5. #5

    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    [Pre-disclaimer: I am an extra-terrestrial being, my purpose here is just to observe how earthlings feel, think, and behave; as the ancients among earthlings themselves have multi-millennia back already arrived at: observation of life, man, nature, the universe is the quintessential and the number one enjoyment and thrill for intelligent earthlings, and it is called contemplation. That, my friends here, is also my engrossment in this forum.]

    ----------------------

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Allo Allo View Post
    I point out again that there is no meaning to an atheist for existence – or life. So there is nothing to work out – for an athiest.

    If you think of “God”, not as a “Prime Observer” observing concept, but as the “whole of everything” simply “being” (because it can), you get rid of the problem of “responsibility” to anything. If “the whole of everything” is evolving, are you suggesting that finding meaning to existence and life by Homo Sapiens is part of the evolution of “the whole of everything”? Do you think “the whole of everything” could carry on “being” without us? Is “observing” necessary to “being”?

    M

    .

    I point out again that there is no meaning to an atheist for existence – or life. So there is nothing to work out – for an athiest.

    If I may, can we agree that you for being and professing yourself to be an atheist are presently existing and operating and living and acting in this forum, and outside this forum are carrying on the everyday acts of a living earthling to stay alive and well and to endure or last as long as you can continue animate existence, as opposed to inanimate existence like the kind exhibited in stones.

    Can we agree that in your everyday life as described above you are certainly working out something, first and foremost to stay alive.

    So, can we agree that you really don't mean for being an atheist that you are not working out anything, nothing absolutely, while you live and breathe and function? At least I can observe that you are working out how to understand whatever you read here and working out the drafting of a reaction message for publication in this here forum. Can you observe that from and by and through and about yourself?

    .

    If you think of “God”, not as a “Prime Observer” observing concept, but as the “whole of everything” simply “being” (because it can), you get rid of the problem of “responsibility” to anything. If “the whole of everything” is evolving, are you suggesting that finding meaning to existence and life by Homo Sapiens is part of the evolution of “the whole of everything”? Do you think “the whole of everything” could carry on “being” without us? Is “observing” necessary to “being”?

    If you think of “God”, not as a “Prime Observer” observing concept, but as the “whole of everything” simply “being” (because it can), you get rid of the problem of “responsibility” to anything.

    I can agree, as an extra-terrestrial being (ET), that God as so understood to be everything simply existing because it can is not responsible for anything and to anything.

    I don't have that problem of God having any responsibility or not; but I am just curious why intelligent earthlings have responsibilities, and that is also the concern of Alumno deVerum.

    .

    If “the whole of everything” is evolving, are you suggesting that finding meaning to existence and life by Homo Sapiens is part of the evolution of “the whole of everything”? Do you think “the whole of everything” could carry on “being” without us? Is “observing” necessary to “being”?

    Please don't get me wrong; I am an ET here to contemplate the feeling, thinking, and functioning of humans, in particular the intelligent ones, i.e., who do employ their intelligence.

    It is Alumno deVerum who is concerned to draw a transition from his expatiation about God as concept generator and the world and man as concepts in God's mind, the transition namely that

    However that does not mean our lives are meaningless. Only that we are responsible for creating that meaning for ourselves.
    http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/sho...62&postcount=2

    I myself don't see how that transition to the need to make man's existence meaningful to himself, how that transition namely can follow from his expatiation about God's existence as expounded by himself.

    What I can observe is that Alumno deVerum is aware of the fact that man is cognizant of his actually living a meaningful existence, and he wants people who don't see any meaning to life or choose to not live or to profess that they don't want to concur with the rest of men that life is meaningfully being lived and is worthy of living, as the saying goes: "Get a life, Have a life," he is concerned to exert his own voice to tell these deniers of meaning to life, to create a meaning for themselves.

    What about myself, an ET? As I said in my preceding message:

    If you ask me, an extra terrestrial being: God is himself seeking a meaning, He is a developing or if you will an evolving God; theists are participating in that process of God's self-development or self-evolution; now, atheists are agitated against the God Which to them does not exist, and also against theists to all appearances.

    What do I recommend to atheists? Resolve your agitation and work out a meaning to existence and life, then consult the marketing experts if you are interested in gaining adherents to your advocacy.

    You don't agree with me, that is your privilege; and I can observe that you find meaning with not agreeing with the rest of men that they are pursuing a meaningful life, and with me for my kind of a suggestion how man's living of and pursuit of meaning in life can be embedded in Alumno deVerum's concept and nature of God.

    At least, I observe that you find meaning in challenging the fact and the urge of mankind (excepting of course atheists who feel otherwise) to live a meaningful life and to seek more meanings to life


    ergry

  6. #6
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    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    “If you ask me, an extra terrestrial being: God is himself seeking a meaning, He is a developing or if you will an evolving God; theists are participating in that process of God's self-development or self-evolution;” So would it be beneficial to this “developing God” that atheists work out a meaning for life??? And “ that atheists being agitated against the God Which to them does not exist, and also against theists to all appearances.” Is this attitude holding this evolving God back?

    You say “What do I recommend to atheists? Resolve your agitation and work out a meaning to existence and life, then consult the marketing experts if you are interested in gaining adherents to your advocacy.”

    Well it seems to me, that science itself, as currently taught in education will gain adherents for atheists – so no marketing experts will be needed. This would change again if something as yet undiscovered overturned the current teaching of science making atheism an illogical belief. (Which is not impossible.) Science is a self-correcting method of observation. It would then educate people in another way. It is far more exciting following the discoveries of science than adhering to religious dogma and creeds that do not satisfy an intelligent person, except in their most abstract form.


    Again – whatever science discovered that might make a difference to Atheists, it would not change any fundamentalist religion because they lack the “self correcting” aspect of scientific thought.

    What planet are you from?


    M



  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Alumno deVerum View Post
    If the world is fundamentally logical then it must have a logical reason for being.
    Nope.
    Better sorry than safe.

  8. #8
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    Alumno, this theoretical flatline "God" you postulate: do you think it can actually do anything - and if so, what?

  9. #9

    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    Quote Originally Posted by Jocky View Post
    Alumno, this theoretical flatline "God" you postulate: do you think it can actually do anything - and if so, what?
    UMMMMM NOPE Why should IT do what we think IT feels constrained to do.

    Maybe a good watch maker perfers a self winding time piece and god wodn't have to worry about constantly mantainingnig and he, she i,or What and they can just chill.ormaybe I just dont ask for stuf

  10. #10
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    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    Quote Originally Posted by Alumno deVerum View Post
    UMMMMM NOPE ... Maybe a good watch maker perfers a self winding time piece
    Hurrah, a straight answer to a simple question! Thank you.

    OK, so you don't think that this variant of God can actually do anything, and that creation is (metaphorically) "self-winding". Fine.

    Given this premise, here is my next simple question:

    What is the functional difference between a God who cannot do anything, and no God at all?

  11. #11

    Re: Paradox of Nothingness short version

    Quote Originally Posted by Jocky View Post
    Hurrah, a straight answer to a simple question! Thank you.

    OK, so you don't think that this variant of God can actually do anything, and that creation is (metaphorically) "self-winding". Fine.

    Given this premise, here is my next simple question:

    What is the functional difference between a God who cannot do anything, and no God at all?
    Well It would cause the world to existence but as an unplanned and un controlled epiphenomenon. So the world having no purpose would simply evolve on its own accordding to its own internal dymanics so it must appear to be material even if it isnt. So that which is traditionally called God but I think is better defined as Prime observer, maintains the world simply by being aware of it. That is its sole realtionship and even that is not something decreed. Its observed because it can be observed and for no other reason.

    I do find it interesting though that the criticisms of materialism have been completely ignored. Wonder why?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
    Nope.
    *applause*
    The speed of light, expressed in FFF Units, is 1.8 mega-furlongs per micro-fortnight, or approximately 1.8 terafurlongs per fortnight.

    Gravity makes the heart grow heavier.

    A
    ny use of this product, in any manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is warned that this process will lead to the heat death of the universe.

  13. #13

    Logic cannot prove nor disprove God's existence -- yet. About Buddhism...

    The way I see it, human reason cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God.

    Since that is a limit for the present of human reason, for we cannot be sure about the future, it might be more productive to find out what are the advantages of believing in God or not.

    One thing sure is that the concept of God needs an overhauling from that proprietary to mankind of the traditional monotheistic schools.


    Both theism and atheism are emotional mindsets of man, i.e., why people are theists or atheists is not a matter of the mind but of the heart.

    If I may, I like to bring in the query from people here whether a skeptic can find Buddhism consistent with his skepticism, as skepticism is understood here or better still among the proponents of skepticism in the CSICOP society.

    What about an atheist if he is also a skeptic?


    ergry

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ergry View Post
    The way I see it, human reason cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God.
    We can't disprove to 100%, logical arguments tend to fall over when trying to prove a negative, but we can say confidently Evidence points to a near certainty that there isn't a greater being

    Since that is a limit for the present of human reason, for we cannot be sure about the future, it might be more productive to find out what are the advantages of believing in God or not.
    This sounds like it's leading to Pascal's Wager

    One thing sure is that the concept of God needs an overhauling from that proprietary to mankind of the traditional monotheistic schools.
    If you have to work that hard to 're-image' deities don't you think it shows a fundamental flaw in the belief to begin with? Watch Dogma for a parody example


    Both theism and atheism are emotional mindsets of man, i.e., why people are theists or atheists is not a matter of the mind but of the heart.
    Rubbish - Most people come to Atheism after thinking about why they're religious and the tenets of their particular religion. Granted a small minority use atheism as 'rebellion' (far less over here than in the US I reckon) but even that can lead to thinking about it.

    If I may, I like to bring in the query from people here whether a skeptic can find Buddhism consistent with his skepticism, as skepticism is understood here or better still among the proponents of skepticism in the CSICOP society.
    Which version of Buddhism? As for "skeptic Buddhists", I can't answer for CSICOP but I know of a few over at the JREF boards



    What about an atheist if he is also a skeptic?
    What about it? Does it make a difference if he's a skeptic and an atheist? What if they're non-skeptical and atheist?
    Defendants might as well have said: Beneficent creatures from the 17th dimension use this bracelet as a beacon to locate people who need pain relief and whisk them off to their home world every night to provide help in ways unknown to our science.
    Judge Frank Easterbrook commenting on the Q-Ray bracelet


    "For Gods sake you're an American! Stop thinking of the consequences and blow something up" - Stan Smith, American Dad!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ergry View Post
    The way I see it, human reason cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God.
    I think this is the key to the question of God's existence.

    There is absolutely no way at all of examining the claim so that renders any such claim or counter-claim meaningless.

    I think that it was around the time of Thomas Aquinas that God was finally promoted (relegated?) to the position of a truly supernatural being. In other words, God is not only unknown to Man but unknowable by Man.

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